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  1. #11
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    How do you have the heart to cling to your traditional interpretation of the Bible in the face of child abuse?
    The Atonement is the lynch-pin of the Christian worldview. Theism cannot make sense of the problem of evil without it; thus, theism would lose its explanatory power, and God would become unknowable.

    It's the Atonement that allows the Christian to hurdle the gap between the grounds and content of his beliefs under a realist interpretation of experience.

    For those interested in Scripture here are some verses to back up the traditional interpretation. (I'll adduce Romans 4, but not quote it here.)

    By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, of whom it was said, "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back (Heb 11:17-19, ESV)

    "But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad" (John 8:55-56, ESV)

    Though he slay me, I will hope in him; yet I will argue my ways to his face (Job 13:15, ESV)

    Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me." And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will" (Mat 26:38-39, ESV)

    Jesus said to him, "Friend, do what you came to do. "Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized him. And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword. Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then should the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must be so" (Mat 26:50-54, ESV)

    For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Rom 5:6-8, ESV).
    ^Not child abuse.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wank View Post
    I've seen you bring this one up a few times in the past. I rather believe you may have missed the point of that part of the story...
    God did not let him do this, He stopped him. A test of faith in the Lord, to impart an understanding to those the story would be writ about and those who would read it; regarding the extent of faith in the Lord one could and/or has, ideally have/(, )had, as well as the ensuing consequences.
    I don't want to nitpick, but God didn't stop Abraham until he was about to kill his son. He led Issac up to the sacrificial altar, laid him down on it, and was probably preparing to grip his knife. You had better believe that child was crying, screaming, and bartering for his life with the father that he never quite saw the same way again. I would agree that this is child abuse. If you were kidding with your son, would you let it get this far? Of course not - and the story also serves to illustrate the dangers of accepting Divine Command Theory with a capricious God.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Ought we desire "to describe and understand the natural world as accurately as possible"?
    No. The problem is the same with the other statement. It took me a long time to come to the realization that being rational is simply no better than being irrational. There is nothing sacred about truth - I accept this, much as I don't like it, until someone puts up a strong argument in the defense of truth.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
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  4. #14
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    No. The problem is the same with the other statement. It took me a long time to come to the realization that being rational is simply no better than being irrational. There is nothing sacred about truth - I accept this, much as I don't like it, until someone puts up a strong argument in the defense of truth.
    Do you think this is... true?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Do you think this is... true?
    :yim_rolling_on_the_

  6. #16
    Senior Member wank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    You had better believe that child was crying, screaming, and bartering for his life with the father that he never quite saw the same way again.
    Nope. He was 13, an adult for the time as I understand it, not a child.

    Further, no struggle was mentioned against his predicament.
    Since I've come to understand this as a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, I have no reason to believe he to have struggled negatively against the situation.
    Everyone is a case study.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Do you think this is... true?
    I don't think truth doesn't exist. That isn't what I'm getting at. I'm merely saying that my intuition says it is ethical to know the truth even if it is painful, but that is a belief that I cannot back up. Truth is not inherently more valuable than illusion.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by wank View Post
    Nope. He was 13, an adult for the time as I understand it, not a child.

    Further, no struggle was mentioned against his predicament.
    Since I've come to understand this as a foreshadowing of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross, I have no reason to believe he to have struggled negatively against the situation.
    In all likelyhood, this never happened anyway. But I think every innocent person resists to some extent when he is about to have his life taken away.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
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  9. #19
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    I don't want to nitpick, but God didn't stop Abraham until he was about to kill his son. He led Issac up to the sacrificial altar, laid him down on it, and was probably preparing to grip his knife. You had better believe that child was crying, screaming, and bartering for his life with the father that he never quite saw the same way again. I would agree that this is child abuse. If you were kidding with your son, would you let it get this far? Of course not - and the story also serves to illustrate the dangers of accepting Divine Command Theory with a capricious God.
    Um.... Haven't you run across the common supposition that Isaac was in his late teens/early 20's at the time of this incident? Here's one interesting comment: "In rabbinical tradition the age of Isaac at the time of binding is taken to be 37 which contrasts with common portrayals of Isaac as a child.[12]"

    Another:

    At the time that Isaac was conceived, we are told that Abraham was 99 years old, his wife Sarah was 90, and Ishmael was 13 (Genesis 17:1, 17, 25). Ishmael was sent out of Abraham's house at the time Isaac was weaned (Genesis 21). The age of weaning varies greatly between cultures but typically it would be between the ages of 2 and 5. The next given event is a covenant between Abraham and Abimelech, but no ages are given to tell us when this occurred. It was some time after this covenant that Isaac was offered. After the sacrifice of Isaac came news of Abraham's relatives in Haran and then we are told that Sarah died at the age of 127 (Genesis 23:1).

    Hence, the sacrifice of Isaac must have occurred between the age of 5 and 36, which is quite a broad span. In addition, Isaac is referred to as a "lad" or na'ar in Hebrew in Genesis 22:5 and 12. This noun is used to refer to a male from infancy to young adult not yet married. For example, Joseph is called a lad at the age of seventeen (Genesis 37:2) and at the age of thirty (Genesis 41:12, 46).

    We do have some further clues. Isaac is old enough to travel three days with Abraham but without his mother. His conversation with Abraham is that of an older child or a young adult. Finally, Isaac is the one who carried the wood for the sacrifice up the mountain (Genesis 22:6). The latter is strong evidence that Isaac was no longer a small child and serves as the main reason that our best guess is that he was at least in his late teens."
    In any case, as Wank says, he was older... and Abraham was an old old man at this point. Remember, he thought it a joke that he could even FATHER a child at his age originally. Abraham probably could have been fended off, if necessary, by Isaac if he had been unwilling. Note that in the narrative, Isaac carried all the wood up unto the mountain himself, for his own sacrifice.

    If that is the case, then Isaac was trusting his father with his life in allowing him to do this. It wasn't the same as tying down a toddler to butcher.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    In any case, as Wank says, he was older... and Abraham was an old old man at this point. Remember, he thought it a joke that he could even FATHER a child at his age originally. Abraham probably could have been fended off, if necessary, by Isaac if he had been unwilling. Note that in the narrative, Isaac carried all the wood up unto the mountain himself, for his own sacrifice.
    No, I always thought of Isaac as a young child. And here I was making Abraham out to be some unethical character.
    An inscription above the gate to Hell:
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