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  1. #11
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Yeah, the way he enslaved women and children from the surrounding tribes was pretty advanced, not to mention recognising that those enslaved women would still be in need of sex, and gave his crew the go ahead to force that sex on those new slaves, was beyond advanced, I see that now.


    Let's forget all about the first wife he ever married, long before he ever conceived his crazy ideas, long before a whisper of islam even appeared. Let's forget all about that woman, who owned her own business and was in control of her own money, who pursued mohammed and married him without needing anyones permission. That way we can pretend that any rights woman gained in that area, only happened after mohammed created Islam.
    lol... compared to the christianity of the day it wasn't signifigantly horrible (reading up on the mideval church would make proper stories of terror for small children in many cases- I didn't even know you COULD torture people in some ways that I've seen mentioned! Not to bother with the feudal system, the fact that anyone higher ranking had the ability to do what they wanted with a pretty lady without her permission or making children do some of the more dangerous and dirty jobs in society...)

    Was speaking for the time compared to elsewhere- I took the history of the middle east and history of mideval europe the same semester- there was quite a bit of contrast there
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    lol... compared to the christianity of the day it wasn't signifigantly horrible (reading up on the mideval church would make proper stories of terror for small children in many cases- I didn't even know you COULD torture people in some ways that I've seen mentioned! Not to bother with the feudal system, the fact that anyone higher ranking had the ability to do what they wanted with a pretty lady without her permission or making children do some of the more dangerous and dirty jobs in society...)

    Was speaking for the time compared to elsewhere- I took the history of the middle east and history of mideval europe the same semester- there was quite a bit of contrast there
    I'd just be cautious of many of the mideval horror stories about Christendom, they frequently are propaganda from successive efforts by groups which see themselves as supplanting or eradicating Christendom, ie the rennaisance, enlightenment, liberal revolutions.

    Much of the mideval horrors have been exaggerated or attributed to Christendom and official sanction when they were not, for instance Witch Panics and widespread murder of innocents associated with that are akin to the south sea bubble, frequently it is not Christendom that is at fault but the madness of crowds and popular dillusions.

    Much of the social criticism which considers the crimes of inquisitors and others reprehensible were Christian in their origin anyway.

  3. #13
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    just looking at social structures and laws of the time is quite enough to unsettle a person- I'm not stupid...

    I'm just comparing the social structures a bit there- the feudal system was pretty horrible and I didn't even realize to what extent until I read up on it- the fact that the church went along with that, as a majority, kind of horrifies me

    I have a sneaking suspicion that "using serfs for indefinite labor" doesn't really square with "what would jesus do?"
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #14
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post

    I have a sneaking suspicion that "using serfs for indefinite labor" doesn't really square with "what would jesus do?"
    Yes, but keeping a non muslim as a slave until they become muslim or other conditions are fulfilled, is square with "what mohammed would do".

    I just find it hard to give credit to mohammed, even if it is minorly due, it pales in comparison to the things he stands for in other ways.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  5. #15
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Yes, but keeping a non muslim as a slave until they become muslim or other conditions are fulfilled, is square with "what mohammed would do".
    This is not true. If you do some investigation you will find freeing a slave is considered a good deed and does not have to fulfill any conditions.

  6. #16
    Supreme High Commander Andy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    This is not true. If you do some investigation you will find freeing a slave is considered a good deed and does not have to fulfill any conditions.
    In the quran, that is mentioned as a form of penance. Other options included fasting or feedin the poor.

  7. #17
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    This is not true. If you do some investigation you will find freeing a slave is considered a good deed and does not have to fulfill any conditions.
    I used to believe that, but on more investigation discovered that there were times when freeing a slave, wasn't best course of action, passing that slave on to 2 uncles of a wife of mohammed would earn more blessings.

    Mohammed enslaved numerous tribes, and his legacy went on to enslave more even after his death. Does saying "free a slave for penance" negate that?

    Prisoners of war as slaves, is one thing that perhaps you could argue had reason, but there were other ways mohammed allowed slavery too. For example if a man married a woman he assumed was a virgin, and then later found that woman to be pregnant, that the unborn child would become his slave.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  8. #18
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    I haven't heard of the things you mentioned. They seem to be historical accounts. That's a whole other issue though because what you believe happened in history will depend on what sources you trust.

    Maybe you know already but I will just say for general information that there is a whole science in Islam (science of hadith) which focuses on sorting out the chain of people who transmitted information/stories and that evaluates how reliable that chain is, thus how reliable the information is and if it's used now or not. There are thousands of random stories about Mohammad and all things Islam-related. They can't be taken as true just because they are old and from that time. Some are really weird and just don't make sense. The thing you mention about how your wife's illegitimate children can be your slaves sounds rather like that to me.

    In general, slavery was a big part of the social and economic system of the time and it couldn't be done away with just like that overnight. I think this is why Islam didn't forbid it right from the beginning but encouraged the freeing of slaves as a good deed (it didn't have to be only as penance). Like alcohol. The verse forbidding one to pray while intoxicated was revealed some time before the verse forbidding intoxicants completely, which abrogated the first one.

  9. #19
    12 and a half weeks BerberElla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    I haven't heard of the things you mentioned. They seem to be historical accounts. That's a whole other issue though because what you believe happened in history will depend on what sources you trust.

    Maybe you know already but I will just say for general information that there is a whole science in Islam (science of hadith) which focuses on sorting out the chain of people who transmitted information/stories and that evaluates how reliable that chain is, thus how reliable the information is and if it's used now or not. There are thousands of random stories about Mohammad and all things Islam-related. They can't be taken as true just because they are old and from that time. Some are really weird and just don't make sense. The thing you mention about how your wife's illegitimate children can be your slaves sounds rather like that to me.

    In general, slavery was a big part of the social and economic system of the time and it couldn't be done away with just like that overnight. I think this is why Islam didn't forbid it right from the beginning but encouraged the freeing of slaves as a good deed (it didn't have to be only as penance). Like alcohol. The verse forbidding one to pray while intoxicated was revealed some time before the verse forbidding intoxicants completely, which abrogated the first one.
    Ah, the modern invention of picking and choosing which hadiths out of the sahih collections are true anymore, especially when it paints Islam so negatively.

    Of course it's positive to see so many muslims re-evaluating the sahih hadiths, ie the submitters who completely do away with hadiths altogether, it's a hopeful look into how Islam will transform itself much like christianity.

    Then again these minute changes, and large ones in some places only refute the claim that Islam can not and never will change from the way it was practised by mohammed and the sahaba.

    Ah well, even discarding countless sahih hadiths, considered sahih for over a millenia, you can't get rid of that wonderful verse in the quran giving a husband permission to beat on his wife.
    Echo - "So are you trying to say she is Evil"

    DeWitt - "Something far worse, she's an Idealist"

    Berb's Johari Berb's Nohari

  10. #20
    Senior Member Gerbah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Ah, the modern invention of picking and choosing which hadiths out of the sahih collections are true anymore, especially when it paints Islam so negatively.
    How is it a modern invention to discriminate with your own mind what you accept as rational and true or not? That's a basic part of any kind of thinking. I'm not trying to change how you see things, those are your own opinions, but I don't see anything wrong with evaluating your historical sources. Any historian does that. In any field of history different people will look at the same event differently and "pick and choose" differently. That they do pick and choose at least shows they are thinking about it rather than just assuming that how it was done, or how they assume it was done traditionally is correct just because it's old.

    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Then again these minute changes, and large ones in some places only refute the claim that Islam can not and never will change from the way it was practised by mohammed and the sahaba.
    This depends on what you mean by Islam here. If you mean the evolution and change in people's practice as a whole in their various cultures and societies over the years of course there is change. But anyone who believes in Islam believes it to be the Truth. If you go with me from this hypothesis, if you believe in an absolute God, who revealed something, then the thing revealed must also be absolute in its nature. Thus, it cannot change, though the individuals who try to understand it fail in their grasp of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BerberElla View Post
    Ah well, even discarding countless sahih hadiths, considered sahih for over a millenia, you can't get rid of that wonderful verse in the quran giving a husband permission to beat on his wife.
    I don't appreciate the sarcasm. If you don't like the Quran, ok. But what's the point in baiting people like that? You're not asking because you want to learn something.

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