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The nature of God

Beorn

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This is not true, at least according to the Bible's teachings.

show me where I am wrong.

Romans 1: 18-24
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
20. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
25. because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,who is blessed forever! Amen.
 

Beorn

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The great thing about the Bible is that you can interpret it to mean whatever you want it to mean.

But, if there is absolute truth than some interpretations will be closer to the truth than others. The only exception might be the portions of the Bible that are pure poetry. But even in the poetry I believe God is trying to communicate certain determinable messages.
 

swordpath

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show me where I am wrong.

Well, you're quoting the Bible for starters.

Not to say The Bible is pure BS necessarily, however it's man-written text and just to take it as absolute would be naive.
 

Beorn

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Well, you're quoting the Bible for starters.

Not to say The Bible is pure BS necessarily, however it's man-written text and just to take it as absolute would be naive.

You said I was wrong according to the Bible's teachings. It seems quoting the bible would be helpful in determining what the bible's teachings are.
 

simulatedworld

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But, if there is absolute truth than some interpretations will be closer to the truth than others. The only exception might be the portions of the Bible that are pure poetry. But even in the poetry I believe God is trying to communicate certain determinable messages.

Yes, and I'm sure whatever interpretation you choose for them makes you happy...and thus religion has served its purpose.
 

Beorn

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Uh, no my religious beliefs do not make me happy in and of themselves. At least not all of them. I take no joy in the belief that God will send people, people I love and care about, to hell. I don't believe things like that because they make me happy I believe them because I'm compelled to believe what the bible teaches. I am compelled to believe what I believe is reasonable and coherent (of course I also think my belief is supernaturally compelled by the work of God). If you accept certain presuppositions about Christianity than it becomes amazingly self-consistent and reasonable.
 

swordpath

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You said I was wrong according to the Bible's teachings. It seems quoting the bible would be helpful in determining what the bible's teachings are.
It doesn't say we will get what we want, because there's stipulations involved.
 

simulatedworld

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If you accept certain presuppositions about Christianity than it becomes amazingly self-consistent and reasonable.

If you accept certain presuppositions about anything, it becomes consistent and reasonable. What's your point?
 

Into It

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OP:

Your question rests on the false presumption that there is such thing as "innocent suffering."

Christians believe "ALL have sinned and have come short of the glory of God."


IF God is Just and IF ALL have sinned and deserve just punishment than punishment is all God owes to Anyone.

The amazing thing about the Christian God is that he did intervene and is intervening to take away sin and make people whole through his saving grace by the work of his son Jesus.

And even to those that are not Christians God is still merciful to them through his common grace and he withholds the full force of his wrath. He enables all people to enjoy creation and all the benefits of being human when we do not deserve it.


The real question is: Why do good things happen to bad people?

We're supposed to praise God when he *doesn't* hurt us, for that very reason, and call him merciful?

I don't think I owe God with my behavior because he's the all powerful rulemaker any more than I believe that you have the right to tell me what to do just because you're holding a gun.
What's the difference? It's tyranny.

You can't possibly put "God is just" and "We are all guilty" in the same post. As Ayn Rayn said, "To be found guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of justice" ...as well as..."A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice."

I'm created with a propensity for evil for which I will be punished. I'm created with a free will and then told not to use it!

(Same goes for my reason)
 

simulatedworld

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We're supposed to praise God when he *doesn't* hurt us, for that very reason, and call him merciful?

I don't think I owe God with my behavior because he's the all powerful rulemaker any more than I believe that you have the right to tell me what to do just because you're holding a gun.
What's the difference? It's tyranny.

You can't possibly put "God is just" and "We are all guilty" in the same post. As Ayn Rayn said, "To be found guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of justice" ...as well as..."A free will saddled with a tendency is like a game with loaded dice."

I'm created with a propensity for evil for which I will be punished. I'm created with a free will and then told not to use it!

(Same goes for my reason)

No dude, just have more faith and it'll all make sense. Just try to not think about the parts that blatantly don't make sense. :doh:
 

Into It

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One more note on Hell - to which I am sure to go.

Yahweh is THE most evil figure imaginable. Satan doesn't even hold a candle to him.

There is not a single human being who deserves Hell. There never was, and there never will be.

Hitler doesn't deserve anything CLOSE to Hell. The worst thing that Hitler deserves is to suffer every bit of torment he caused. He deserves to feel every pang of loss and to relive every painful death he has caused. Let's say he deserves to feel all of that suffering, start to finish, fifty trillion times.

That wouldn't even be the first *second* in hell. Not the first *picosecond* by definition. And this is where we are all destined to go, unless we follow a set of tyrannical rules which *include* compulsory love for the one who is sending you there. How anyone could worship God out of pure fear I can understand, but to worship him AND think that he is not evil? How? What's so good about him? That he blessed us with life? If we could really fathom the pain of eternal torment, and We were in limbo, and God asked us, "Do you want to live 80 years on Planet Earth which will be half pleasurable and half painful? Keep in mind, there is a very real chance that you will wind up in eternal torment for all eternity for what appear to you to be relatively minor transgressions." Anyone would say "No, please, don't put me there, it isn't worth the risk, I'd rather just not be born." I don't OWE him for this "gift of life" that I didn't ask for and WOULDN'T have asked for (if heaven and hell existed).
 

simulatedworld

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Infinite punishment for finite sin never really made sense to me, either.

My favorite defense they'll use when you point out inconsistencies: "I don't make the rules; that's just how it is!", as if they're unable to pick up on the fact that my criticisms of the inconsistencies suggest that the entire system is nonsense. I'm not accepting that it's true and just complaining that it's unfair; I'm pointing out how the entire philosophy is internally inconsistent and that the entire concept of Hell is probably made up.

Of course, consistency isn't the point. It's not supposed to make logical sense, because that would defeat the purpose of faith.
 
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