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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by forzen View Post
    Free will is an illusion, humans have set boundaries that cannot be broken. Our desicions are finite and we cannot be more than what we are, a human. Good and evil is only a perception in a individual. Good exist as morale values that promotes order which promotes human preservation, everything that break this values are consider evil. Humans are uncomfortable with the unknown and as a result created the idea of god to explain those that cannot be explained. God is a human creation which stem from the fear of the unknown.

    However, I believe there are higher lifeforms, but they probably could care less if Earth and every species on it are wiped out.
    This type of philosophy is self-destructive. If you assert this you should take no confidence that any of your observations or thoughts on this matter are true... along with anything else. Thus is the destructive belief in purely relativism.





    "Materialists and madmen never have doubts."


    "[...] But the case is even stronger, and the parallel with madness is yet more strange. For it was our case against exhaustive and logical theory of the lunatic that, right or wrong, it gradually destroyed his humanity. Now it is the charge against the main deductions of the materialist that, right or wrong, they gradually destroy his humanity; I do not mean only kindness, I mean hope, courage, poetry, initiative, all that is human. For instance, when materialism leads men to complete fatalism (as it generally does), it is quite idle to pretend that is is in any sense a liberating force. It is absurd to say that you are especially advancing freedom when you only use free thought to destroy free will. The determinists come to bind, not to loose. They may well call their law the "chain" of causation. It is the worst chain that ever fettered a human being. You may use the language of liberty, if you life, about materialistic teaching, but it is obvious that this is just as inapplicable to it as a whole as the same language when applied to a man locked up in a madhouse. You may say, if you life, that the man is free to think himself a poached egg. But it is surely a more massive and important fact that if he is a poached eff he is not free to eat, drink, sleep, walk, or smoke a cigarette. Simiarly you may say, if you life, that the bold determinist speculator is free to disbelieve in the reality of the will. But it is a much more massive and important fact that he is not free to raise, to curse, to think, to justify, to urge to punish, to resist temptations, to incite mobs, to make New Year resolutions, to pardon sinners, to rebuke tryants,m or even to say "thank you" for the mustard."

    In passing from this subject I may note that there is a queer fallacy to the effect that materialistic fatalism is in some way favorable to mercy, to the abolition of cruel punishment or punishments of any kind. This is startlingly the reverse of the truth."

    "Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God."

    -- G.K. Chesterton
    How very true this is, and self evident throughout history. Many of the worst governments in history subscribed to the philosophy of the determinist and the relativist... and people still wonder about the state of affairs in the world. This is why indoctrinating and propagating this mind set by governments has been successful in destroying freedom and enslaving the planet... evident from proponents of Communism right up to the "Century of the Self" and the culture of "Me" and the arrogance of the individual and Self worship. It is sheer propaganda and the world bought right into it, in doing so surrendering their freedom: the ability of their rational minds.

  2. #22
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    Well, the angels are quite different than humans. Angels since their Creation existed with God in Heaven and consequently, their Free Will is under much different conditions... they are not as free as we are in a sense. I believe this is why God loved us above all else, we have the hardest struggle to know Him, and when we find it, it is a much greater feat than that of the plight of the angels. Saints in heaven are human, and I believe sin is a problem of humans which goes back to the theology (not fundamentalist lunacy) of the Fall. Satan is an interesting character in this story, widely misunderstood. We are struggling to know God our Creator. Everyone has free will under God. God did not directly create Evil and it is not a separate force battling with God (nothing can "battle" God). God wills things to happen and his created beings' Free Will under His ultimate Will charts the course of humanity and the universe. We choose where we go... proving the ultimate necessity of sin for the human story.
    Is sin necessary because we are free, or is sin necessary because all things, including human free will (and angelic free will?) is subject to the ultimate Will of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    Mmmmm, Nay.

    I can't know the mind of a God, unless of course I created him in mine. God is free, but he is not cheap....unless I buy the Reader's Digest version that has been on the shelf for centuries. Angles who have not sinned? I don't want some goody-goody angel who has no idea what I'm going through. I prefer to think of angelic status as earned somehow...Saints? Good people, great people....nominated by who? Not any God I'm familiar with.

    Sin is not evil. Sin is missing the mark; trying but failing in the attempt, being human. Evil is something else; the deliberate breaking of the law for personal gratification.

    Is to be good to not sin or commit evil acts? A person could be born who, without knowledge of a god may not ever bring sin or evil to this sphere yet has not left any tangible good behind either, someone simply benign, a place holder.

    All believers should at least obey the Law. But to just do that and nothing else...sounds to me like missing the mark. If a spark of the divine, a fragment of this God lives in each of us...then it is what we do with that gift that rends and tears at God's essential being. We debase a God or enhance a God with our deliberate actions...we cannot help but do this as we are part of God's deliberate creative act; a fragment of divine thought. It's the ultimate sustainability issue...
    Do you think that suffering will persist aveternally? I ask because if sin isn't evil, and sin is a result of being human, then sin will exist so long as we're human. (I'm assuming here that our identity is tied to our being human.) But if sin will always be with us, and suffering is a result of sin, then we'll be aveternally suffering.

    Also, do you think God will judge people negatively for sinning?

    I still don't see how, based on what you've written, free will is sufficient to explain the existence of evil. Why can't we freely, deliberately follow principles of beneficence and non-maleficence?

  3. #23
    Senior Member forzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    This type of philosophy is self-destructive. If you assert this you should take no confidence that any of your observations or thoughts on that matter are true.
    I'm confident in my observations, but i'm also aware that these observations are mine alone. My perceptions are nothing but my opinions I have gathered through living. God is an abstract idea, therefore without proper evidence, i have concluded that it is faulty to consider his existance.

    The feelings of benovelence can stem from any variables, its a feeling similar to being inspired and could be caused by a number of things which a person values. I have was raised a Christian, but I do not beleive I have fallen as I still follow the morale values which I was taught. The reasons i have explained in my previous post.

    If god vanished me to hell because of my doubt, I have no other to blame but myself. However, I will be true to my values and believe on what i feel even if it cost me God's wrath.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by forzen View Post
    I'm confident in my observations, but i'm also aware that these observations are mine alone. My perceptions are nothing but my opinions I have gathered through living. God is an abstract idea, therefore without proper evidence, i have concluded that it is faulty to consider his existance.

    The feelings of benovelence can stem from any variables, its a feeling similar to being inspired and could be caused by a number of things which a person values. I have was raised a Christian, but I do not beleive I have fallen as I still follow the morale values which I was taught. The reasons i have explained in my previous post.

    If god vanished me to hell because of my doubt, I have no other to blame but myself. However, I will be true to my values and believe on what i feel even if it cost me God's wrath.
    Read my edited post. I believe the last part of your post is classic human arrogance. I do not say this to offend you because everyone takes part in it. We are arrogant because we believe we have something, however we constantly forget who gave it to us... thus we abuse it.

  5. #25
    Senior Member forzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    Read my edited post. I believe the last part of your post is classic human arrogance. I do not say this to offend you because everyone takes part in it. We are arrogant because we believe we have something, however we constantly forget who gave it to us... thus we abuse it.
    I don't believe we have anything, we are human nothing less nothing more. However, in my opinion it's very arrogant to state that we are created in God's image, that we are entitle to grow slaughter farms for animals so we don't have to hunt. The arrogance is to think that we are unique snowflake in this planet and deserve to rule it as we please.

    And given enough time, we might extend that arrogance to the rest of the universe.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    Is sin necessary because we are free, or is sin necessary because all things, including human free will (and angelic free will?) is subject to the ultimate Will of God?



    Do you think that suffering will persist aveternally? I ask because if sin isn't evil, and sin is a result of being human, then sin will exist so long as we're human. (I'm assuming here that our identity is tied to our being human.) But if sin will always be with us, and suffering is a result of sin, then we'll be aveternally suffering.

    Also, do you think God will judge people negatively for sinning?

    I still don't see how, based on what you've written, free will is sufficient to explain the existence of evil. Why can't we freely, deliberately follow principles of beneficence and non-maleficence?
    I'm try to respond to all your questions.

    As humans our mental powers are limited because of our state as being a fusion of the material and immaterial. We don't freely follow principles of beneficence and maleficence because we inherently are self serving and have a tendency to be ungrateful for the awesome gifts of God. This is the human condition and part of the theology of the Fall. All evil is, is the this tendency to Self serve, going against the Will of God which is to GIVE. God did the ultimate giving... you could say God IS giving. God IS one of the many elements of his Creation is pure giving. We have this godly nature in us, but also temptations because of our existential condition. By overcoming the obsession with temporal pleasures (though not inherently bad, but made bad through our intentions) we become worthy of God. This is a loaded statement... is anyone worthy of God? No, but that does not matter to God, it is all about recognizing the gift of Creation. To answer your first question, the answer is kind of both. Because we are made in the image of God and because of our condition we are very likely to fall into the trap of thinking WE are Gods, that WE alone can arrive at ultimate Truth, that WE can take the place of God. To combat this we see the story of Satan, and how that is mirrored in the human condition so much. No one is battling God, but He used the outcome of Free Will in this case to chart the destiny of humanity. In other words, we are like God because of our intellect, but we cannot be God because we would not exist if we were God. Christianity is based of the idea of reciprocal relationships because that is the relationship God has with his Creation. When we realize this and strive to be like Christ (the God-man) we attain salvation because we are being like Christ who is God. We have chosen very little in the way of our existence... we did not CHOOSE to be born. No one chooses to be born, we are given the gift of Life, and that is why there is male and female... to mirror the relationship between God and His creation.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by forzen View Post
    I don't believe we have anything, we are human nothing less nothing more. However, in my opinion it's very arrogant to state that we are created in God's image, that we are entitle to grow slaughter farms for animals so we don't have to hunt. The arrogance is to think that we are unique snowflake in this planet and deserve to rule it as we please.
    We are human, nothing less, nothing more? That is self destructive thinking. The fact that anything exists and that we can partake in creation is in itself a contemplation for life. We are unique and so is everything that has ever been created... but that does not preclude objective Truth which is where we find God. You cannot judge the actions of selfish people and their creation of slaughterhouses for they are ignorant of their condition. We are made in his image meaning we have an intellect, albeit infinitely below His.

  8. #28
    Senior Member forzen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    We are human, nothing less, nothing more? That is self destructive thinking. The fact that anything exists and that we can partake in creation is in itself a contemplation for life. We are unique and so is everything that has ever been created... but that does not preclude objective Truth which is where we find God. You cannot judge the actions of selfish people and their creation of slaughterhouses for they are ignorant of their condition. We are made in his image meaning we have an intellect, albeit infinitely below His.
    And how would you know we were created in his image? We are only unique because we think we are.

    Intelligence is questionable we haven't had a benchmark to measure of how intelligence we are besides another human. I bet those lions in Africa are given each other high fives for being on top of the food chain. We are a tiny dot in the universe. I'm assuming here that if the Earth is the Universe, we would be the god of it. So in comparason, a culture of bacteria would be comparable to humans and we hardly care about bacteria unless it's affecting us, then we try to kill it.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by forzen View Post
    And how would you know we were created in his image? We are only unique because we think we are.

    Intelligence is questionable we haven't had a benchmark to measure of how intelligence we are besides another human. I bet those lions in Africa are given each other high fives for being on top of the food chain. We are a tiny dot in the universe. I'm assuming here that if the Earth is the Universe, we would be the god of it. So in comparason, a culture of bacteria would be comparable to humans and we hardly care about bacteria unless it's affecting us, then we try to kill it.
    That is circular reasoning.

    Also, a big universe neither proves or disproves anything. If anything, it is a look into God's mind from where we stand as humans. A careful study of theology puts to rest any of these objections.

    That mentality of "it's affecting me let's kill it" is a major problem of the human condition and would be eliminated if we stopped being our own gods.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    That is circular reasoning.

    Also, a big universe neither proves or disproves anything. If anything, it is a look into God's mind from where we stand as humans. A careful study of theology puts to rest any of these objections.

    That mentality of "it's affecting me let's kill it" is a major problem of the human condition and would be eliminated if we stopped being our own gods.
    I'll agree on the universe and where we stand as humans in God's mind. However, i have other priorities to content with that would not let me study theology. So with that said, i'll step down from this debate as I don't have enough knowledge in that area.

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