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  1. #1
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Default A question for Christians who aren't bible fundamentalists.

    Alright, so you probably don't take the Old Testament literally. But where do you stand on Jesus and the New Testament?

    Did Jesus perform miracles? Did he die for our sins? Did the resurrection happen? Or is the Jesus story a creation of the Gospel writers and based largely on earlier Messianic figures?

    And if you don't believe in a literal historical Jesus Christ, how do you reconcile that lack of belief with a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ?

  2. #2
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    This forum is clearly lacking in the church-going types. Heh, get it? Types!

  3. #3
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    Church is cool as long as you remember that you should be getting in touch with God, not church.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I'll post later.

    But we've got some, Tes.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Church is cool as long as you remember that you should be getting in touch with God, not church.
    Dude, I don't know about that. I feel a particularly deep connection with the pews, alter, hymn books, and old ladies garbed in their frilly little sun-hats. Does that make me a sinner?

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    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Dude, I don't know about that. I feel a particularly deep connection with the pews, alter, hymn books, and old ladies garbed in their frilly little sun-hats. Does that make me a sinner?
    No. In fact I went to a Catholic funeral service with my 85 year old grandmother a couple weeks ago. Having not been to mass for some time, I actually found I missed that scent of the wood pews. How smooth the tops are from a million people running their hands over them for years. The church itself is very comforting to me. The rest of it, not so much. I especially liked the little laminated card on each pew, basially saying...don't even THINK about taking communion if you haven't met a few criteria. While I understand the reasoning behind the note, I found it giggle inducing.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  7. #7
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Alright, so you probably don't take the Old Testament literally. But where do you stand on Jesus and the New Testament?

    Did Jesus perform miracles? Did he die for our sins? Did the resurrection happen? Or is the Jesus story a creation of the Gospel writers and based largely on earlier Messianic figures?

    And if you don't believe in a literal historical Jesus Christ, how do you reconcile that lack of belief with a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ?
    Not exactly a christian as such... but it's probably the closest to any religion currently. I try to look at things from multiple perspectives though and take the one that makes the most sense. For alot of the stuff regarding christ, I find alot of it to be... on shaky ground at best.

    There's a few issues though; most of the miracles Jesus reportedly performed were just as easily meant to be interpreted as metaphorical. For example, the whole fish and bread thing, it probably meant more that it took jesus to give the little food they had around, before anyone else was willing to share the food they had and were keeping to themselves. One act of kindness shows that people really WEREN'T starving but were just too greedy/worried about themselves to share. Turned out they had tons of food in the first place and just didn't use it. Which's a perfectly acceptable message going with most of the scriptures, so I'd consider it a valid interpretation, though not a miracle.

    Ressurection after 3 days? Pretty common actually, especially back then. These days it's not so commonplace due to more advanced medical knowledge and the fact that embalming replaces yeur blood with poison, which kills yeu if yeu weren't dead before. Even as little as 100 years ago, the term 'dead ringer' still applied, because they'd bury someone, and have a string in the coffin that went up to the surface so if they woke up and really weren't dead, they could pull the rope to ring the bell and let a guy sitting next to it for 3 days to hear if they were alive and needed unburied. This was an actual profession. The fact that jesus died by BLOOD LOSS also highly elevates the chances of his having merely gone unconscious, as it's noted that everything that signaled his 'death' occured at the instant of his going unconscious. Someone being bled to death like that usually passes out significantly before they die, and if they just took him down immediately, chances are he wasn't dead at all. Of course, there's also the minor technicality that the romans at the time were rather extensive in their record keeping of criminals, and that there were very few cases of crucifixions to begin with, and that such a high profile case would have warranted a large amount of notations in their records, of which there have never been any found. Unfortunately, this, the carbon dating of the shroud of turin, and several other pieces of evidence, suggest that Christ was either only a mortal with very strong charisma, with great PR, or didn't exist in the first place.

    Now... that being said, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here as well.

    Jesus himself, according to the new testament, specifically stated several times that he was NOT there to replace the old testament, and that it was required to be followed still.

    There's also the matter that most of the old testament was just written records of the cultures at the time and alot of the "yeu must follow these laws of god!" are actually just the laws of a city or country at the time and have no basis in god's word at all, and are just mis-attributed to such.

    Also Leviticus is total crap, just pretend that part doesn't even exist.

    As for the historical ramifications? Let's say that Christ DIDN'T exist, or if he did, he was *NOT* the son of god. Then whot? Do the christians, every single one of them, burn in hell for worshiping a false god? Whot of the message itself?

    Honestly, I think the whole "peace, love, and understanding" thing goes a long way, though there are admittedly some discrepancies there as well, such as the 'turn the other cheek' thing not actually meaning whot most people think (there were strict laws about which hands were used to hit people; turning yeur other cheek meant they'd have to hit yeu with their other hand, which would mean they are calling yeu their equal, it's pretty weird tradition/law/taboo related stuff that's not included in the story itself), the destroying of a temple, and withering of a plant. I wouldn't exactly call Jesus to be 'perfect' either, despite being supposedly a 'perfect' being.

    Regardless, the message of this Jesus, regardless of whether he lived or not, or was the son of god or not, still holds true for the most part. Don't be an asshat towards others, and try to get along with people even if yeu really hate their guts. He didn't need to be the son of god to have the right idea on being nice to each other. He didn't even need to be real; how many bedtime stories do we tell our children about fictional characters in order to present concepts of morality?

    As such, the validity of existence, though in question, is irrelevant to the message presented.

  8. #8
    Senior Member wank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    A question for Christians who aren't bible fundamentalists.
    So, just to clarify: not being a Christian(bible) fundamentalist, would be being a Christian having some form of the anti-supernaturalism presupposition, as/and/or a belief that the bible is not the (inerrant )word of god?
    Everyone is a case study.

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    i call myself a christian. whenever i watch wizard of oz i remember the scene when the wizard says he was a wizard, just a very bad one, or something like that. that's how i feel as a christian. i feel i only became one through reading the bible and i felt this understanding of the new testament, most notably book of john, and felt such a surge of belief. so after that i felt born again or at the very least enlightened in a way of the monk or oh fush cant recall the expression! word finding probs. anyway now im using a lot more fact based determination of my faith and it just plain doesnt make sense to me! so how do i reconcile the clear statement if you dont think jesus is the only way then you go to hell versus my own belief that that is pretty much a hogwash statement? well i don't know! is my answer. especially for someone like me who totally believed with all my heart in the idea that jesus is gods son, to take that back is akin to blasphemy, a hellish state awaits anyone who would do so.

    but with that said, i believe i am strong enough to take whatever god dishes out to me in the afterlife. its only this life i'm frequently concerned about my thoughts, beliefs, behaviors, separation from love that i truly worry about.

  10. #10
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wren View Post
    well i don't know! is my answer. especially for someone like me who totally believed with all my heart in the idea that jesus is gods son, to take that back is akin to blasphemy, a hellish state awaits anyone who would do so.
    May I state that if yeu 'believed with all yeur heart' then it wouldn't be a problem. If yeu recieve new information that yeu find makes yeu question such, THEN QUESTION IT.

    I'm pretty sure god would rather have someone who yearns to believe with true understanding and faith, over someone who blindly follows because they were told to =3

    "taking it back" isn't a blasphemy, pretending to believe when yeu really don't, however, would be. If god really is god, then he'd know yeu don't really believe it; yeu need to do a bit of soul searching, or some research into more information, or discuss with some people who know their stuff, and see if yeu can't get answers to yeur problems. How yeu go about doing it doesn't matter, so much as yeu learn.

    Whether yeu learn for or against probably isn't that big of an importance either as long as yeu tried.

    But then again that's my personal view... I just can't see god sending someone to hell for trying their best to do whot's right on a religious sense, and then send someone to heaven for doing something they didn't even believe in.

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