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  1. #61
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Could you explain for the court what the "pursuit of objective history" is?

    I think it's part of the meat of this sort of topic. Most people are only acquainted with their own particular way to approach an issue.... A common mistake is to assume that one is part of a traditional way of viewing something, when that really is not the case.
    Crudely, objective history searches for the "just the facts please" of all things past. I say crudely because there is obviously debate over historical topics in academia--but they are searching, or at least should be if they have integrity, for history as it really happened.

    That just wasn't there in the ancient world, especially in the ancient near east (ANE). People were not concerned about what to us look like apparent contradictions and discrepancies. Logic was not king. The Greek language and alphabet are suited to the purposes of logic, but this is not the case in Hebrew.

    For instance, of all the writings from ancient Egypt, how many times have we come across unbiased, unexaggerated portrayals of kings? They always gloat on and on about their triumphs, though they are often not accurate.

    So look at the Flood story in Genesis. There are two different descriptions of how many animals were put in Noah's boat, as well as how many days it rained, and how many days the waters lasted. This is because the books were comprised of different sources and edited over time. But for the people who used the Scriptures, those contradictions didn't matter.

    For this fact alone, it is unwise to interpret the Bible literally, unless there is sufficient reason to do so. (Not everything in the Bible is objectively false)
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Now we are getting into one of the main intersections of the arguments in this particular topic , which is this:

    What does it mean specifically to love god and love your neighbor?

    Is it a feeling?
    Is it an attitude?
    Is it fulfilling a list of specific actions?
    How do people recognize whether they are "really" loving God and others?



    Could you explain for the court what the "pursuit of objective history" is?

    I think it's part of the meat of this sort of topic. Most people are only acquainted with their own particular way to approach an issue.... A common mistake is to assume that one is part of a traditional way of viewing something, when that really is not the case.
    I believe it is all of those things and Jesus himself gave a lot of directions as to what it meant, these seem absurd and bound to guarantee the self-destruction of anyone literally practicing them.

    For instance giving your coat to anyone who asks for it, selling all you have and divesting yourself of all worldy possesssions what so ever and giving them to the poor (note that there is no expectation of this changing, helping or satisfying the poor, nor is it anything to do with social justice, social conscience or just dessert per se either, it is about changing the believer not the recipient of their goods).

    However this in itself must be understood in the context of legalism and sufficiency as it existed in Jesus' day, the laws of the old testament had become a bind and burden upon mankind, there are still those who believe that is exactly as should be but this was not Jesus' point of view, so much is clear, that he felt these laws were created to serve man and not vice versa.

    The second major thing is that Jesus opposed deal making or sufficiency in practicing a life pleasing to God and also satisfactory to man, so he purposefully made statements which provided no cap or speficity, besides boundless generosity (in a way this can only be fathomed as a reflection of the psychology of God who was the author of creation, the gift that keeps on giving, who does not want anything in return, indeed what would he want or could he have which he has not already given to the giver in the first place?).

    There is also quite a bit about this not being a merely material precept, I'm sure that Jesus would and does bawlk at the material inequity between his followers (I dont believe any of the calvinist heresy what so ever, the idea that material prosperity equals favour is the reinvention or revitalisation of ancient old testament reasoning which Jesus rejected) but observations about poor people parting with little amounts versus rich people giving collosal amounts reflect it is the impact upon the giver which is important, not the process of giving itself or the amount.

  3. #63
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    All those examples are examples of old testament Christians or Judeo-Christians and I feel that's wrong too, Jesus has a pretty clear and simple message throughout his ministry which supersedes all the existing prior scriptural law and tradition.
    Really? How do you interpret these passages then:

    Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
    - Matthew 5:17-18

    If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?
    -John 5:46-47

  4. #64
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Really? How do you interpret these passages then:

    Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
    - Matthew 5:17-18

    If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?
    -John 5:46-47
    Well Jesus never contradicted the Law, after all he always was a Jew. It's just that his teachings are the essence, and the most important part of the law.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Really? How do you interpret these passages then:

    Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
    - Matthew 5:17-18

    If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?
    -John 5:46-47
    The Devil can quote scripture...

  6. #66
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    He was talking about fulfilling the prophesies concerning the Messiah.
    What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The Devil can quote scripture...
    And when he does, Jesus is gracious enough to even the devil to give a real response...
    "There are no answers, only choices."
    -Jennifer

  8. #68
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Well Jesus never contradicted the Law, after all he always was a Jew. It's just that his teachings are the essence, and the most important part of the law.
    Is there any part in the NT where Jesus asserts that his teachings supersede or are more important than the OT? It looks like he was affirming the authority of the OT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The Devil can quote scripture...
    Doesn't the Devil also avoid giving straight answers to questions?

  9. #69
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott View Post
    And when he does, Jesus is gracious enough to even the devil to give a real response...
    Quoting particular lines from Scripture is a really bad way of arguing, unless everyone, including the speaker, is familiar with the context in which it was written. I'm almost positive that we don't have any theologians on the forum, so we shouldn't point to random lines.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  10. #70
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Is there any part in the NT where Jesus asserts that his teachings supersede or are more important than the OT? It looks like he was affirming the authority of the OT.
    I'm not aware of him ever explicitly saying that. Again, I'm not going to point to specific lines and say "here it is" because that's useless here. It could be that this line of thinking comes from the images of rebuilding the Temple in three days...I'm not really sure. He never did contradict the Law, he preached about what is referred to as "spirit of the law" vs "letter of the law."
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

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