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  1. #51
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is the classic blood libel against the Jews which you are repeating without shame or remorse.

    The blood libel started with the Gospel of John where he has the Jews crying out, "Let His [Jesus] blood be upon us and upon our children'.

    And the blood libel that the Jews are deicides has been carried down the millennia by christianity until it culminated in the holocaust.

    I remember a nice old Polish lady just after WW II at a Polish railway station on the way to Auschwitz, justified the holocaust by saying, "Well, they [the Jews] are Christ killers, aren't they?".

    And you repeat the same blood libel here.
    And now you have made a personal accusation against me.

    The really sad part is that as bogus as the accusation against me is, the child abuse argument is even more ridiculous.

    In your desperation, you have resorted to a false ad hominem argument. Shame on you.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  2. #52

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    Jennifer, I cant distinguish between one sort of scriptural literalism and another I'm afraid, I think tradition is more important, although it is just as corruptable I'm afraid and can result in bad faith too or in faith becoming a dead religion like a sort of reverse alchemy, turning gold into lead.

    I dont see why anyone would need to be literalist, in the main I find its a bad foundation for faith and important to someone who is unsure of the truth of their faith and needs comfortable fall back positions to retreat to.

  3. #53
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    ... it's true what Teresa of Avila wrote:

    Christ has no body now on earth but yours,
    no hands but yours,
    no feet but yours,
    Yours are the eyes through which to look out
    Christ's compassion to the world
    Yours are the feet with which he is to go about
    doing good;
    Yours are the hands with which he is to bless men now.
    Teresa was a pretty insightful woman, I think.

    Regardless of all the intellectual arguments over historicity, she's still stating the bottom line here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...I dont see why anyone would need to be literalist, in the main I find its a bad foundation for faith and important to someone who is unsure of the truth of their faith and needs comfortable fall back positions to retreat to.

    I think my issue more is just that I have no idea what specifically is being defined as literalist.

    No one follows the Bible literally, they always filter it through some perspective and have a set of priorities by which they interpret.

    So you get some literalists who believe you should stone homosexuals, which is a very literal reading, or following the specific dietary requirements for Israel in the OT, or a congregation like the Seventh-Day adventists who believe they must worship God on Saturday (which is the 'actual' Sabbath) in order to fulfill the Ten Commandments.

    Or you get evangelical varieties of faith, where people are not quite so literal, but still view something like Paul's comments about women in the church to be a universal mandate rather than a cultural-specific set of strictures.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    And now you have made a personal accusation against me.

    The really sad part is that as bogus as the accusation against me is, the child abuse argument is even more ridiculous.

    In your desperation, you have resorted to a false ad hominem argument. Shame on you.
    Yeah, sounds like there's some Jewish reverse racism going on there.

    I dont understand how it is a libel if its not untrue, libel, if I'm not mistaken is written lies, did they or didnt they say that his blood could be upon them?

    If they did not believe Jesus was the Messiah then I dont have any trouble believing that they could have said such a thing, its plain they would have cared for him as much as they would have for any perceived heresy at the time or today.

    Has it resulted in anti-semitism, maybe, although properly understood the state of Israel is as responsible for anti-semitism today as anyone else, the domestic and neighbouring aboriginal populations being semitic but not Israeli.

    Of the actual existing anti-semitism, including the holocaust, Christianity is not to blame, it has been ideology and mass psychology which has been responsible, better still the divide and conquer of tyranny which divides the public into in and out groups.

    However if this is who contemporary Jews feel about Christianity and "gentile" followers of Christ that's pretty telling.

  5. #55
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Note: I've already sent some warnings out in regards to this thread. The anti-semitism angle seems to be somewhat a tangent and also is leading straight into personal attacks.

    If we could get back to the "title" topic, I think that would be appreciated by everyone, thank you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #56
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think my issue more is just that I have no idea what specifically is being defined as literalist.

    No one follows the Bible literally, they always filter it through some perspective and have a set of priorities by which they interpret.
    I think a great amount of the literal interpretation comes from judging the book to improper standards, that is, reading it as if it were the same type of literature that we are familiar with in history textbooks.

    On top of that, the biblical books themselves are made up different types of literature. The pursuit of objective history wasn't around in ancient times--not even in Thucydides, the father of history.

    To gain full, or even nominal understanding, you have to look at the books as they were originally intended to be understood. Our modern minds come with all kinds of preconceptions, and people reflect their own contexts onto the biblical books. That's bad scholarship.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Teresa was a pretty insightful woman, I think.

    Regardless of all the intellectual arguments over historicity, she's still stating the bottom line here.




    I think my issue more is just that I have no idea what specifically is being defined as literalist.

    No one follows the Bible literally, they always filter it through some perspective and have a set of priorities by which they interpret.

    So you get some literalists who believe you should stone homosexuals, which is a very literal reading, or following the specific dietary requirements for Israel in the OT, or a congregation like the Seventh-Day adventists who believe they must worship God on Saturday (which is the 'actual' Sabbath) in order to fulfill the Ten Commandments.

    Or you get evangelical varieties of faith, where people are not quite so literal, but still view something like Paul's comments about women in the church to be a universal mandate rather than a cultural-specific set of strictures.
    All those examples are examples of old testament Christians or Judeo-Christians and I feel that's wrong too, Jesus has a pretty clear and simple message throughout his ministry which supersedes all the existing prior scriptural law and tradition.

    Love God and Love your neighbour, this is the whole of the law.

  8. #58
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...Love God and Love your neighbour, this is the whole of the law.
    Now we are getting into one of the main intersections of the arguments in this particular topic , which is this:

    What does it mean specifically to love god and love your neighbor?

    Is it a feeling?
    Is it an attitude?
    Is it fulfilling a list of specific actions?
    How do people recognize whether they are "really" loving God and others?

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    On top of that, the biblical books themselves are made up different types of literature. The pursuit of objective history wasn't around in ancient times--not even in Thucydides, the father of history.
    Could you explain for the court what the "pursuit of objective history" is?

    I think it's part of the meat of this sort of topic. Most people are only acquainted with their own particular way to approach an issue.... A common mistake is to assume that one is part of a traditional way of viewing something, when that really is not the case.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Note: I've already sent some warnings out in regards to this thread. The anti-semitism angle seems to be somewhat a tangent and also is leading straight into personal attacks.

    If we could get back to the "title" topic, I think that would be appreciated by everyone, thank you.
    OK, cheers, was it anything to do with my posts? I'll delete them if you like

  10. #60
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    OK, cheers, was it anything to do with my posts? I'll delete them if you like
    Naw, you're cool.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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