User Tag List

First 2345614 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 239

  1. #31
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Good heavens, it is not just christians who are flawed, it is God Himself. For He ordered Abraham to murder his son - the very epitome of child abuse.

    And it is no accident that the three great faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called Abrahamic faiths.

    And it is nightmare of Abrahamic child abuse that we are slowly waking up from.
    Yeah and have you ever considered as Jung has that humanity is the medium by which God experiences directly creation, this being so its not inconceivable that with every generation of humankind a change is effected in both God and man, therefore you have the explicable, apparently immature, jealous God of the old testament and the mature, God incarnate man Jesus of the new testament.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Being born with a sinful nature does not make one evil. You put that spin on there yourself, though you would not be alone in making it. It doesn't mean children, or anyone, is inherently evil--it means they aren't perfect or infallible. Predisposition is not predestination.

    Also I am aware of torturing heretics, inquisitions, blah blah blah. That was obviously wrong. The Church is made of imperfect people. Get over it everyone. So what if people used original sin to advocate something bad? Does that mean original sin is automatically a bad idea? Absolutely not.

    Unfortunate though it is, people use essentially good ideas to argue in favor of bad policies. For instance, one does not have to search very long to come across instances in which democracy, widely considered a good thing, has been used as a justification for bad policies. Should we likewise decide, "Democracy generates such people. Democracy must be bad?" A logical mind will not think that.

    About the remarks on Aquinas and Augustine: Yes the two had their shortcomings as all humans do. We have nobody perfect to live up to, except for Jesus and (for some Christians) Mary. Does that mean every idea and argument made by all other people is inherently bad? I don't think so. Do Aquinas' and Augustine's shortcomings mean they have nothing worthwhile to consider? Likewise, no.

    It's easy to get mad at Christianity, but after all this, it's the people who are flawed. So it should be no surprise to see good organizations make mistakes, even severe ones, as they progress.
    Just on a point of order, our reckoning of inquisitorial horrors etc. is a consequence of filters which are hostile to Christianity, ie rennaisance, enlightenment, liberal revolution, cultural secularism, cultural hedonism and they have ALL engaged in historical revisionism in the process.

    There is nothing at all like the sort of honest recognition of the Christian heritage that there should be, the detractors of Christianity call to mind inquisitions but they dont at once question the origin of modern day hospitals or medicine as emerging from the holy order of hospitallers during the Crusades and Pilgrimages of Christendom.

  3. #33
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9
    Posts
    925

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Good heavens, it is not just christians who are flawed, it is God Himself. For He ordered Abraham to murder his son - the very epitome of child abuse.

    And it is no accident that the three great faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called Abrahamic faiths.

    And it is nightmare of Abrahamic child abuse that we are slowly waking up from.
    You will challenge the idea that creation was done in a week. But you base your own arguments on literal interpretation.

    That episode was written at a certain time, by certain people, with a certain purpose. Our understandings have changed since then. The Bible is a big and complicated book. It's best not to pick out certain verses to fit into your position.

    This is part of the reason why I am not a biblical literalist, but still am a Christian. Look at the math of Archimedes. It's good math, but if we took a math textbook from his time, we would quickly realize the book would not include advancements made since its publication.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  4. #34
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9
    Posts
    925

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Just on a point of order, our reckoning of inquisitorial horrors etc. is a consequence of filters which are hostile to Christianity, ie rennaisance, enlightenment, liberal revolution, cultural secularism, cultural hedonism and they have ALL engaged in historical revisionism in the process.

    There is nothing at all like the sort of honest recognition of the Christian heritage that there should be, the detractors of Christianity call to mind inquisitions but they dont at once question the origin of modern day hospitals or medicine as emerging from the holy order of hospitallers during the Crusades and Pilgrimages of Christendom.
    Yeah I totally agree. People hardly ever cite all the good Christianity has done.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  5. #35
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah and have you ever considered as Jung has that humanity is the medium by which God experiences directly creation, this being so its not inconceivable that with every generation of humankind a change is effected in both God and man, therefore you have the explicable, apparently immature, jealous God of the old testament and the mature, God incarnate man Jesus of the new testament.
    God is the unchanging First Cause. If God changes it is not God.

    In fact you have no wriggle room - if you accept God, you accept child abuse.

    For instance, God was offended by us and to forgive us He tortured his Son to death.

    So God was not content to order Abraham to murder his son, God went on to torture His own Son to death.

    We are slowly waking up from this nightmare of child abuse.

  6. #36
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,541

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Yeah I totally agree. People hardly ever cite all the good Christianity has done.
    Gosh, do you really think we should cite all the good the child abuses do? Or do you think we should wake up from the nightmare of child abuse?

  7. #37
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9
    Posts
    925

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    God is the unchanging First Cause. If God changes it is not God.

    In fact you have no wriggle room - if you accept God, you accept child abuse.

    For instance, God was offended by us and to forgive us He tortured his Son to death.

    So God was not content to order Abraham to murder his son, God went on to torture His own Son to death.

    We are slowly waking up from this nightmare of child abuse.
    You're jumping to conclusions too quickly. It has been argued that God is the unchanging First Cause. I happen to agree with this. This, however, does not mean our perception of God does not change to some extent. It is our understandings and portrayals of God that change, not God himself.

    That child abuse and belief in God go hand in hand is...well...seriously? That's so out there.

    God tortured his son? That's news to me. I could have sworn that he was executed and tortured by ancient Romans, goaded by a number of ancient Jews.

    Again I think you're twisting events to conform to your own misconceptions.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  8. #38
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    God is the unchanging First Cause. If God changes it is not God.

    In fact you have no wriggle room - if you accept God, you accept child abuse.

    For instance, God was offended by us and to forgive us He tortured his Son to death.

    So God was not content to order Abraham to murder his son, God went on to torture His own Son to death.

    We are slowly waking up from this nightmare of child abuse.
    Er, no, that's a bizarre leap to make, the link you've made.

    Besides this is testament to the fact that God does not want or require human sacrifice, a great difference from many of the false Gods and graven images of other pagan religions like Baal.

    God is the first and original principle but why would God not change? He has created evolving beings, including humankind, and we are reliably informed that we are all made in his image.

  9. #39
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9
    Posts
    925

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Gosh, do you really think we should cite all the good the child abuses do? Or do you think we should wake up from the nightmare of child abuse?
    Well first I think we should get a grasp of reality. The fact is that the good from Christianity far outweighs the bad done from Christians. And not just spiritually. Clearly, child abuse is not the only thing that happened the last 2000 years. You are just upset by it today, allowing it to influence yout perceptions and judgments. Of course child abuse should stop, but that's no reason to get rid of Christianity.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  10. #40
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Yeah I totally agree. People hardly ever cite all the good Christianity has done.
    Christianity is a little like feminism or similar creedos, most of the time their greatest critics and detractors are utilising the very analytical or conceptual tools which they fashioned in the first place.

    If any humanist or humanitarian cares to criticise Christianity for failing to meet with Christian ideals or standards the stock reply should be that they are Christian standards, Christianity fails because it expects so much of itself in the first place. If they criticise Christianity for failing to meet with humanist or humanitarian standards, well, they are failing to acknowledge the extent to which those very things are products of Christian thinking and culture.

    Christianity reorientated the human race's thinking about man, giving him a special status in creation which no faith before or since has done, not only is man the most valued by God, an inverse of previous thinking (man valuing God not vice versa), but God choose to become man, to be man, to experience all the pain, suffering, doubt and dilemma of being a man. No other faith, not even Judahism has such a tenant.

    Without it none of the modern humanocentric thinking would have come to pass, for better or worse.

Similar Threads

  1. Questions for those who are completely SURE of their type
    By Such Irony in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 06-15-2013, 11:49 PM
  2. Question for People Who Live In Japan
    By Savage Idealist in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-11-2011, 02:48 AM
  3. Question for those who oppose same-sex marriage on religious grounds:
    By Brendan in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 111
    Last Post: 05-05-2010, 09:32 PM
  4. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 04-25-2009, 03:19 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO