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  1. #21
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I think we are, as human beings, rotten at the core. We have to work to be peaceful, tolerant, and loving.

    I think any scripture from any culture has fantastical myths, and that there are levels of understanding, and we achieve the level we are able to achieve and get what truths we are able to assimilate, and each of us is different from the other in that respect, which is exactly how it should be. I think we should respect each other's understanding. Getting wrapped up in the literalness and the details is a sort of devil's trap to create argument and dissent. I'm definitely an ecumenist.

    I do believe in miracles because I've experienced at least two events that I consider miraculous and direct answers to prayer, and if it could happen to me, it could surely happen to anybody.

    I also do believe in baptism and church, but in the sense that if you decide to be baptized, you are making a spiritual alignment that cannot be undone, and in the sense that church is the community of believers, not a building.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Kristiana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Did Jesus perform miracles? Did he die for our sins? Did the resurrection happen?
    Yes, yes, and yes.

    There is quite a bit of historical validity for Jesus' existence, and quite a bit of evidence to logically argue that the resurrection happened.... check out The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel if you'd like a more detailed, comprehensive argument for it.

    As for miracles (defined by God's intervention into an individual's life), it is quite easy for me to believe in them because I've experienced a few.
    j'adore les chats

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I think we are, as human beings, rotten at the core.
    Thankfully I don't believe we are rotten at the core because I don't believe in the christian doctrine of Original Sin.

    And I don't believe in Original Sin because I know for a fact from the Origin of Species and the genome that there was no Adam and Eve. And there being no Adam and Eve there can be no Original Sin.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    No I don't--those things go hand in hand. I'm just focussing on the positive side of it. If you would prefer me to rhapsodize about the ways in which I have failed to be perfect I could go on for years and years...
    I am sure you are quite perfect if not in your eyes at least in mine. And if in mine, just think of all the others who see you in the same way.

    Frankly I don't think you will be able to hold out. So I think you should take a deep breath and see yourself as we see you.

  5. #25
    Senior Member proximo's Avatar
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    I've put most of my more expressable thoughts about it here...

    Though I admit, your particular questions aren't explicitly addressed there. I'll have a think and come back to it... if I remember

    In short, no I don't believe in miracles, but I do believe Jesus did things other people perceived to be miracles. No I don't believe he died "for our sins" in the way that traditional Christianity means it, though I do believe he died and that it was to demonstrate something important to us. As for whether the resurrection happened, it's not relevant for my belief system in many ways... IOW it doesn't rely on that being the case.
    I'm male and over 30, FYI.
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  6. #26
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    But if you were to believe the christian doctrine of Original Sin, going all the way back to Augustine, you would know you are rotten at the core. And far from neglecting to behave perfectly, you delude yourself that you implement love, patience, kindness, gentleness, etc when in fact you are damaged and damaging.
    Your portrayal of original sin makes it look as though original sin dictates humans are all evil, only able to put up a facade of goodness. I don't know that that's an accurate understanding. The way I understand it, regardless what Augustine may say, is that humans are not totally good--they are imperfect and unable to be the total Good. That's different from saying that humans are basically evil.

    Augustine was an especially pessmistic Christian and I don't know what he'd say about this; however, in the Catholic Church there have been advancements in understanding since his time.

    Whether there were an Adam and Eve or not does not really diminish the idea of original sin either, especially for non-literalist Christians.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Your portrayal of original sin makes it look as though original sin dictates humans are all evil, only able to put up a facade of goodness. I don't know that that's an accurate understanding. The way I understand it, regardless what Augustine may say, is that humans are not totally good--they are imperfect and unable to be the total Good. That's different from saying that humans are basically evil.

    Augustine was an especially pessmistic Christian and I don't know what he'd say about this; however, in the Catholic Church there have been advancements in understanding since his time.

    Whether there were an Adam and Eve or not does not really diminish the idea of original sin either, especially for non-literalist Christians.
    The doctrine of Original Sin says that babies are born in sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

    And the doctrine says we are all predisposed to sin from the moment of our birth.

    Essentially it says children are bad. And the doctrine of Original Sin has been used to justify child abuse for at least a thousand years or more - "punish the body and save the soul".

    Read the Ryan Report from the Irish Government at 1,600 pages and find out how the abuse was carried out. And if that is not enough read the Dublin Report just out. And find the Ryan Report confirmed.

    Augustine taught that heretics should be tortured. So the Church ran the Inquisition under the Dominicans for 600 years. And Thomas Aquinas said he looked forward to heaven so he could enjoy seeing the suffering of the souls in hell.

    Aquinas was an obese sadist. And Augustine provided the theology of torture. And both are Fathers of the Church.

    We are just now awakening from the nightmare of child abuse based on the christian doctrine of Original Sin.

  8. #28
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The doctrine of Original Sin says that babies are born in sin inherited from Adam and Eve.

    And the doctrine says we are all predisposed to sin from the moment of our birth.

    Essentially it says children are bad. And the doctrine of Original Sin has been used to justify child abuse for at least a thousand years or more - "punish the body and save the soul".

    Read the Ryan Report from the Irish Government at 1,600 pages and find out how the abuse was carried out. And if that is not enough read the Dublin Report just out. And find the Ryan Report confirmed.

    Augustine taught that heretics should be tortured. So the Church ran the Inquisition under the Dominicans for 600 years. And Thomas Aquinas said he looked forward to heaven so he could enjoy seeing the suffering of the souls in hell.

    Aquinas was an obese sadist. And Augustine provided the theology of torture. And both are Fathers of the Church.

    We are just now awakening from the nightmare of child abuse based on the christian doctrine of Original Sin.
    Being born with a sinful nature does not make one evil. You put that spin on there yourself, though you would not be alone in making it. It doesn't mean children, or anyone, is inherently evil--it means they aren't perfect or infallible. Predisposition is not predestination.

    Also I am aware of torturing heretics, inquisitions, blah blah blah. That was obviously wrong. The Church is made of imperfect people. Get over it everyone. So what if people used original sin to advocate something bad? Does that mean original sin is automatically a bad idea? Absolutely not.

    Unfortunate though it is, people use essentially good ideas to argue in favor of bad policies. For instance, one does not have to search very long to come across instances in which democracy, widely considered a good thing, has been used as a justification for bad policies. Should we likewise decide, "Democracy generates such people. Democracy must be bad?" A logical mind will not think that.

    About the remarks on Aquinas and Augustine: Yes the two had their shortcomings as all humans do. We have nobody perfect to live up to, except for Jesus and (for some Christians) Mary. Does that mean every idea and argument made by all other people is inherently bad? I don't think so. Do Aquinas' and Augustine's shortcomings mean they have nothing worthwhile to consider? Likewise, no.

    It's easy to get mad at Christianity, but after all this, it's the people who are flawed. So it should be no surprise to see good organizations make mistakes, even severe ones, as they progress.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I think we are, as human beings, rotten at the core. We have to work to be peaceful, tolerant, and loving.

    I think any scripture from any culture has fantastical myths, and that there are levels of understanding, and we achieve the level we are able to achieve and get what truths we are able to assimilate, and each of us is different from the other in that respect, which is exactly how it should be. I think we should respect each other's understanding. Getting wrapped up in the literalness and the details is a sort of devil's trap to create argument and dissent. I'm definitely an ecumenist.

    I do believe in miracles because I've experienced at least two events that I consider miraculous and direct answers to prayer, and if it could happen to me, it could surely happen to anybody.

    I also do believe in baptism and church, but in the sense that if you decide to be baptized, you are making a spiritual alignment that cannot be undone, and in the sense that church is the community of believers, not a building.
    I've got to say that I'm pretty misanthropic, or at least I consider myself that way but I cant say that the idea that we're rotten to the core has been borne out by experience.

    Most of the people I've known who are rotten are either cognitively challenged or are trapped in some sort of maturational crisis, ie they've got a real developmental deficit that results in them playing games, repeating internal scripts they arent even conscious of etc.

    I dont know if goodness is its own reward but badness is its own punishment a lot of the time that's for damned sure. Whether anyone who's rotten gets their just desserts, ie a right rollocking punishment, or not they'll still be miserable.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Being born with a sinful nature does not make one evil. You put that spin on there yourself, though you would not be alone in making it. It doesn't mean children, or anyone, is inherently evil--it means they aren't perfect or infallible. Predisposition is not predestination.

    Also I am aware of torturing heretics, inquisitions, blah blah blah. That was obviously wrong. The Church is made of imperfect people. Get over it everyone. So what if people used original sin to advocate something bad? Does that mean original sin is automatically a bad idea? Absolutely not.

    Unfortunate though it is, people use essentially good ideas to argue in favor of bad policies. For instance, one does not have to search very long to come across instances in which democracy, widely considered a good thing, has been used as a justification for bad policies. Should we likewise decide, "Democracy generates such people. Democracy must be bad?" A logical mind will not think that.

    About the remarks on Aquinas and Augustine: Yes the two had their shortcomings as all humans do. We have nobody perfect to live up to, except for Jesus and (for some Christians) Mary. Does that mean every idea and argument made by all other people is inherently bad? I don't think so. Do Aquinas' and Augustine's shortcomings mean they have nothing worthwhile to consider? Likewise, no.

    It's easy to get mad at Christianity, but after all this, it's the people who are flawed. So it should be no surprise to see good organizations make mistakes, even severe ones, as they progress.
    Good heavens, it is not just christians who are flawed, it is God Himself. For He ordered Abraham to murder his son - the very epitome of child abuse.

    And it is no accident that the three great faiths, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are called Abrahamic faiths.

    And it is the nightmare of Abrahamic child abuse that we are slowly waking up from.

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