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  1. #191
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    II've heard people condemn Mathew's gospel as anti-semitic because of its constant attack upon Mammon but I'm fine with it, .
    It sounds like those people who attack Mathew's gospel as anti-semitic beacuse of the attack upon Mammon are the ones who are anti-semitic.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  2. #192
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    He was pretty down to earth in his advice.
    That's a good thing. Paul gets pretty conceptual at times.

    Pretty informative in how they both approached the "faith and works" issue. Both are correct, but I think it's a personality indicator based on which focused on which.
    I tend to lean very heavily towards works. Presumably your doing the work because you have faith. And I'm ambivalent about Paul...James is considered the brother of Jesus by some....and I find his book very consistent with the words of Jesus I have read.

    As for type...well I guess this is the place for that! Any guess?
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  3. #193
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    I tend to lean very heavily towards works. Presumably your doing the work because you have faith. And I'm ambivalent about Paul...James is considered the brother of Jesus by some....and I find his book very consistent with the words of Jesus I have read.

    As for type...well I guess this is the place for that! Any guess?
    I see Paul's conceptual focus on grace as a necessary abstraction so that people don't think you can "earn your way" into heaven and also prevent people from being treated as unbelievers just because they do not follow some religious practice such as circumcision. Forgiveness and salvation is bequeathed by God, in Paul's thinking, not part of a machine where we can put in a quarter and "get" a prize each time.

    However, James is very astute when he says that real faith will evidence works. It doesn't mean much to claim to be a duck if you habitually talk, act, and think like a goat.

    I always saw Paul as (i)NT(j) and James as an S of some sort... potentially ISFP. He's very concerned about the impact of our personal behavior on other people and evidencing our works. Definitely an N vs S dichotomy at the least here.

    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    It sounds like those people who attack Mathew's gospel as anti-semitic beacuse of the attack upon Mammon are the ones who are anti-semitic.
    That's weird. Matthew seemed the most traditional to me... with a clear sense of God as an authority/king and Jesus as having moral authority because he is God's son. He also focused on lots of prophecies to "prove" Jesus' descent from God.

    Mark very much focused on "what Jesus did" (the "active" Jesus / the doer).
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #194
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    I see Paul's conceptual focus on grace as a necessary abstraction so that people don't think you can "earn your way" into heaven....not part of a machine where we can put in a quarter and "get" a prize each time.

    However, James is very astute when he says that real faith will evidence works. It doesn't mean much to claim to be a duck if you habitually talk, act, and think like a goat.


    I will presume (yet again) that an all knowing creator will be able to "divine" your intentions through either faith or works...either way it would not hurt to do the works...James was Jew (as was Jesus)...with their faith undergoing significant change holding on to fundamental practice may have seemed to keep them anchored?

    I do look at Mark as something of a lawyer...but also the gate to the Quelle source and I comprehend Thomas to be a vital part of that. I don't believe in the litmus test of Nicea which seems to occupy a similar place as circumcision (i.e. you must prove it by this). I'm a bit of a Cathar I expect.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  5. #195
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    I will presume (yet again) that an all knowing creator will be able to "divine" your intentions through either faith or works...either way it would not hurt to do the works...James was Jew (as was Jesus)...with their faith undergoing significant change holding on to fundamental practice may have seemed to keep them anchored?
    Possibly. I can imagine for people undergoing such a radical shift in understanding what it meant to be holy and accepted by God that any stability that could be preserved would be helpful.

    I see the words as less to help God figure out who was who (because I would presume deity to already know) and more to help PEOPLE understand where they fell and then be able to self-correct.

    If you think grace means you can just waltz in the front door of heaven and that you're fine, you won't be correcting any bad behavior. If you think works are more important, you'll be cleaning up your act.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #196
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    If you think grace means you can just waltz in the front door of heaven and that you're fine, you won't be correcting any bad behavior. If you think works are more important, you'll be cleaning up your act.
    Works are tangible, to heal to help...Faith is very convenient as a way of avoiding works which are often going to be difficult. This is why I wrote that either way it doesn't hurt to do the works...Works are an outward witness actual corporeal sacrifice...Faith can be insular. As you suggested though they work best brought together.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  7. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    He was pretty down to earth in his advice.
    That's a good thing. Paul gets pretty conceptual at times.

    Pretty informative in how they both approached the "faith and works" issue. Both are correct, but I think it's a personality indicator based on which focused on which.
    I think the faith and works thing is a red herring dating to the reformation.

    Its clear that salvation, justification, election, whatever you want to call it (I know they arent exactly the same thing but its a different topic) is an unconditional gift from God, after all if he is the author of all things he doesnt really need anything and there's nothing you could possibly offer him, he is the ultimate difficult to buy for person as he has everything already.

    I personally err on the side that this life and any possible after life are gifts from God, he also experiences creation through us, not simply the one time that he was incarnate as a human being in the form of Jesus, but through each of us, its a reciprocal deal and every gift relationship known in history is a reflection of it.

    However, if you would model the behaviour of God and Jesus then you would likewise be as giving to others and exhibiting the same generosity and I believe you would because that's what a gift relationship is, there's no such thing as a free lunch when someone gifts you something there's an unspoken obligation to give back, often to give more than you first received. Right up until and even at the inception of the welfare states in the west this was the norm.

    I believe that Paul laid such an emphasis upon faith because he was carrying on Jesus' ministerial effort to move away from scriptural legalism, the point was not to be like any one of the many, many diverse and disparite elements splitting hairs over scripture, either to provide for get out clauses or to create minimums and maximums, so you can behave in a token economy kind of way like "fair weather friends".

  8. #198

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    Mathew to my mind is traditional and a good bridge between traditional Judahism and Christianity, Jesus was meant to be the messiah of the Jews after all, I do think there is a lot of practical direction and a lot about judgement and consequences of this life which I like.

    It is considered anti-semitic because of the amount of condemnation which is directed against money, money makers, usury etc. and how historically significant those things became for anti-semites within Christendom because of scriptural literalism most Christians could not engage in he sorts of money lending or pawn brokering which travelling or wander jews could, prior to the reformation they were both vital to some economic pursuits and reviled and loathed for profiting from their position.

    Its a very contradictory thing though because a lot of law prohibited Jews doing anything else, so when they engaged in money lending and were condemned for it there was no other opportunity over to them.

    I'll confess that I appreciate both Mathew and James because they are anti-materialistic and hate avaratiousness, although I dont know that their mindsets could come to typify an entire society. Gift relationships are generally between closely bonded individuals, such as family and friends, sometimes they can be costly to those involved and if you take the welfare state as an example on a greater scale the reciprocity doesnt hold.

  9. #199
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    ^Ok thanks for elaborating. I still dont subscribe to their connection as it would be unlikely for Mathew to foresee this type of persecution and avarice and materialism for all people is an even greater threat now than ever.

    If I were to pick a favorite book of the NT would have to admit that John a more interesting read (essentially the Divinity of Jesus). However, Mathew, Mark and Luke tend to corroborate each other more and therefore seems more reliable as far as historic accuracy. Luke is refreshing because he seems to incorporate more women in the accountbut guess my favorite is Mark.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  10. #200
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    If I were to pick a favorite book of the NT would have to admit that John a more interesting read (essentially the Divinity of Jesus). However, Mathew, Mark and Luke tend to corroborate each other more and therefore seems more reliable as far as historic accuracy. Luke is refreshing because he seems to incorporate more women in the accountbut guess my favorite is Mark.
    John is considered to be a separately written account. There's been a lot of conjecture that Luke and Matthew used Mark's shorter account as a basis for their own.

    (I personally like Luke's thorough nature that tries to explain a lot of the detail comprehensively while at the same time I enjoy John's abstracted and metaphorical language. The other two books never really appealed much.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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