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  1. #181
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Personally, I don't think Jesus' immortality (or lack thereof), effects the credibility, value or importance of what he had to teach.

    People getting so caught up in miracles and the immortality of Christ, seem to be losing the forest for the trees.
    That's true, I thought about that when reading Kahil Gibran's Son of Man story, at one time miracles had to be recorded to provide plausibility at another they need to be ommitted, how times have changed but it dosnt change the overall message about God and humanity.

  2. #182
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's true, I thought about that when reading Kahil Gibran's Son of Man story, at one time miracles had to be recorded to provide plausibility at another they need to be ommitted, how times have changed but it dosnt change the overall message about God and humanity.
    It does matter.

    If Jesus never did any miracles then he and his apostles are frauds. If they are all frauds then the message lacks any credibility...especially Revelations.

    (P.S. just to put this in context I believe Jesus was the Messiah and performed miracles. Even if he wasn't he had a good philosophy and IMO a superior one to that illustrated in the Old Testament)
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  3. #183
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    If Jesus never did any miracles then he and his apostles are frauds. If they are all frauds then the message lacks any credibility...especially Revelations.
    Fixed.
    (The specific name is "The Revelation of John.")

    Have you been reading Josh McDowell again?

    Jesus pretty much refused to offer miracles to people who demanded a sign... he told them the only sign they would be given (essentially his death and resurrection, in traditional interpretation).

    Miracles are funny things.

    P.S. just to put this in context I believe Jesus was the Messiah and performed miracles.
    it's plausible, and would help support his message.

    I have no way to tell that, 2000 years later, though.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #184
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Jesus represents an idea. None/hardly any of it is literal in my opinion. He is a symbol used to manipulate those who listen. But, nonetheless, it is still relevant in our spiritual growth.

    I'm not strictly Christian.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  5. #185
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I believe in miracles. When I decided to buy a residence, I purposely chose a neighborhood in which I'm one of the very few whites. I don't take all of the Bible literally, but I do take responsibility for direct commandments like "If you love me, feed my sheep." And I choose to be accountable as a Christian for such verses as Matthew 25: 41-45 (ESV)
    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
    Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
    Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' "
    So I cook some Sundays and just let my neighbors know there's food on the stove and they can come over and get a plate, and I give to the ACLU for prisoner's rights, and I give my old clothes and bedding to Goodwill, etc etc.
    FWIW

  6. #186
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Fixed.
    (The specific name is "The Revelation of John.")
    But I was talking about the early Iron Maiden Album.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  7. #187
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    It does matter.

    If Jesus never did any miracles then he and his apostles are frauds. If they are all frauds then the message lacks any credibility...especially Revelations.

    (P.S. just to put this in context I believe Jesus was the Messiah and performed miracles. Even if he wasn't he had a good philosophy and IMO a superior one to that illustrated in the Old Testament)
    That's true too, I was only responding to the previous poster's point about the message/moral philosophy, that can be understood and supported without reference to the over archng significance of the revelation etc.

  8. #188
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I believe in miracles. When I decided to buy a residence, I purposely chose a neighborhood in which I'm one of the very few whites. I don't take all of the Bible literally, but I do take responsibility for direct commandments like "If you love me, feed my sheep." And I choose to be accountable as a Christian for such verses as Matthew 25: 41-45 (ESV)
    "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
    Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
    Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' "
    So I cook some Sundays and just let my neighbors know there's food on the stove and they can come over and get a plate, and I give to the ACLU for prisoner's rights, and I give my old clothes and bedding to Goodwill, etc etc.
    FWIW
    I tend to believe the Gospel of Mathew and book of James above all else in the whole of the bible, I've been told that its heretical and possible anti-semitic to do so and I've heard people condemn Mathew's gospel as anti-semitic because of its constant attack upon Mammon but I'm fine with it, it has really clear messages about practicing what it is to be a Christian, likewise James, there's no mistake.

  9. #189
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    ...it has really clear messages about practicing what it is to be a Christian, likewise James, there's no mistake.
    James is my favorite also. Very practical.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  10. #190
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    James is my favorite also. Very practical.
    He was pretty down to earth in his advice.
    That's a good thing. Paul gets pretty conceptual at times.

    Pretty informative in how they both approached the "faith and works" issue. Both are correct, but I think it's a personality indicator based on which focused on which.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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