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  1. #161
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Furthermore, since my religious beliefs do have a measurable impact, then I know they are based upon true principles..
    Lets see, so this means that a Nazi can regard the fact that his beliefs have a 'measurable impact' (Jews die at his behest) as a justification of the claim that his beliefs are based on a true principle(the principle is in this case is that the jews are inferior to the Aryan race)?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #162
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    "Mystic Tater", a straw man fallacy is committed when someone reiterates his opponent's argument in terms that are superficially similar but different in substance, attacking this misrepresentation. If I'd said, "Liquid Laser clearly argues that efficaciousness is the only thing that matters", going on to attack that proposition, I would be committing a straw man fallacy.

    What Liquid Laser does appear to argue is that any action, so long as it is efficacious, bears out the truth of the beliefs that led to it. If that is what he believes, my above example fits within the framework of his proposition. It's to Liquid Laser to demonstrate either that I've misinterpreted his stance, or that my example does not, in fact, fit within the framework of his stance.

    That there's even an idiotic icon to relieve people of the effort of typing out the phrase "straw man fallacy" is symptomatic of how the term is tossed about like so much confetti by people with only the vaguest understanding of what it means.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

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  3. #163
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    That there's even an idiotic icon to relieve people of the effort of typing out the phrase "straw man fallacy" is symptomatic of how the term is tossed about like so much confetti by people with only the vaguest understanding of what it means.
    Is my intent to be contextually relevant, or is my intent to irritate you?


  4. #164
    Senior Member wank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Lets see, so this means that a Nazi can regard the fact that his beliefs have a 'measurable impact' (Jews die at his behest) as a justification of the claim that his beliefs are based on a true principle(the principle is in this case is that the jews are inferior to the Aryan race)?
    Well, his foundations were not represented to him(the Nazi) by God (who is) outside of time(by prophetic discourse.) One of the unique aspects of Christianity, as I've come to understand(amongst other things).
    Everyone is a case study.

  5. #165
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Is my intent to be contextually relevant, or is my intent to irritate you?
    The latter, until I pointed out that you were wrong, whereupon you resorted to the present tack, clearly.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  6. #166
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Haha. Well, there is a constant flux of energy being reciprocated within the universe. Furthermore, the universe is not only energy, but also matter. So, unless there is an equal amount of antimatter, then there is not a reciprocal for the matter.

    Either, way, this does not discount the universe as nothing. It just means the universe is caught in neutrality.
    What this means is that the amount of positive energy and mass is precisely equal to the negative energy and mass. And so the universe is flat.

    This is an extraordinary thing to discover. And it is fair to say that the sum total of the mass and energy of the universe is nothing.

    Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

    The universe is lighter than a feather? No, it is lighter. You could hold the whole universe in your hand and you wouldn't notice.

    I can't help hearing the song -

    He's got the whole world,
    He's got the whole world,
    He's got the whole wide world in his hand.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    The latter, until I pointed out that you were wrong, whereupon you resorted to the present tack, clearly.
    Not all things are so clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    What this means is that the amount of positive energy and mass is precisely equal to the negative energy and mass. And so the universe is flat.

    This is an extraordinary thing to discover. And it is fair to say that the sum total of the mass and energy of the universe is nothing.

    Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

    The universe is lighter than a feather? No, it is lighter.
    The number zero on a scale of infinitude is still a number, though it is neutral.

    But it is still quite provocative.

  8. #168
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    What about the ruthless, single-minded dictator whose life is greatly improved by his unwavering belief that he is, say, destined to become the king of the world?

    One purpose of religion is to improve one's behavior. Therefore if a person's behavior is improved, then we know that their belief is based on correct principles.

    Likewise if your hypothetical dictator really does become king of the world then we know his belief is correct. If he does not become king of the world then his belief is incorrect. Whether or not his life is improved is irrelevant, because here the criteria are different.


    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Lets see, so this means that a Nazi can regard the fact that his beliefs have a 'measurable impact' (Jews die at his behest) as a justification of the claim that his beliefs are based on a true principle(the principle is in this case is that the jews are inferior to the Aryan race)?
    This example is mostly irrelevant, because there is no real criteria for what makes one race inferior to another. However if a Nazi shoots a Jew, then we know that his understanding of how to operate a gun is based on correct princlples.
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  9. #169
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Religious people don't tend to rely on Ti explanations for their belief systems.

    The whole idea of faith is that it's not inherently reasonable; if it was, everybody would be able to believe it in effortlessly.
    Having religious faith doesn't totally shield someone from experiencing cognitive dissonance - they're still human. Holding contradictory views will always be uncomfortable, to some more than others.

  10. #170
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Having religious faith doesn't totally shield someone from experiencing cognitive dissonance - they're still human. Holding contradictory views will always be uncomfortable, to some more than others.
    I agree, at one time or another its easier to believe certain things, its complicated fair and if it wherent I'd guess there'd be a lot less of the mood disorders and maladies of modern life that exist in the world.

    Some people have difficulty not believing totally irrational things about themselves even let alone the external reality or God, now from a very strictly materialist, physiological or whatever perspective that would be supposedly impossible as its not a metaphysical problem or question such as God and yet it is there none the less.

    I cant pass it all off as the failure of reason or logic either, both concepts are incomplete and over rated in all discourse.

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