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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And these same traditional catholics support the tradition of anti-semitism, quite unlike the modern, progressive Church.
    No. Anti-Zionism, perhaps... but that is for political reasons... Also, a lot of Zionists think the Vatican and the Jesuits are the root of all worldly evil. I'm not a trad Catholic, just reporting my findings.

  2. #152
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    i am going to christmas eve service even though i'm a cast away now that i don't believe that jesus is the son of god. not trying to be flippant or anything, this position was made by pondering my situation and current feelings about my christian faith. i'm going to sit in a pew surrounded by my fellow christians and listen to some beautiful christmas music, share in something traditional with my neighbors and my kids, i'm going to enjoy myself, i think.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The sum of all the energy in the universe is zero. Therefore the universe came from nothing.
    You aren't doing this speculative hypothesis any justice. Your use of the word "nothing" is actually a descriptor for quantum fluctuations, which were questionably existent before the birth of the universe. O ye faithful.

  4. #154
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I guess I just have issues with choosing to believe something just because you want to believe it. So the sort of proposition you are making seems very irrelevant to me in general; I'm most interested in making sure things I invest in eternally and base my life on are true to begin with, not really trying to maximize the impact of a system that could easily be as wrong as right.

    Authenticity is of primary important to me in the pursuit of Truth.
    Making something work just because I've chosen to believe it, less so.
    If what you choose to believe isn't true, why does it even matter if you maximize its potential?
    No one can make something true just by believing it. E.g. I cannot make my car run by filling the gas tank full of water, even if I really want it to run on water. Belief does not make false things become true. Rather belief shows what is false and what is true. E.g. if I fill my gas tank with water and then try to drive the car, then I will find out that my belief is false. Or if I fill the gas tank with gasoline and drive the car, then I will find out my belief in gasoline is true.

    So if I tie this back into our discussion I would say that authenticity is of primary import to me in the pursuit of Truth. I would never hold a belief in something that I knew to be false, while I could place a secure foundation upon beliefs that I knew to be true. Furthermore, since my religious beliefs do have a measurable impact, then I know they are based upon true principles. However, even if my beliefs are based upon true principles, that does not necessarily mean that someone else's different beliefs are based upon false principles.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    No one can make something true just by believing it. E.g. I cannot make my car run by filling the gas tank full of water, even if I really want it to run on water. Belief does not make false things become true. Rather belief shows what is false and what is true. E.g. if I fill my gas tank with water and then try to drive the car, then I will find out that my belief is false. Or if I fill the gas tank with gasoline and drive the car, then I will find out my belief in gasoline is true.

    So if I tie this back into our discussion I would say that authenticity is of primary import to me in the pursuit of Truth. I would never hold a belief in something that I knew to be false, while I could place a secure foundation upon beliefs that I knew to be true. Furthermore, since my religious beliefs do have a measurable impact, then I know they are based upon true principals. However, even if my beliefs are based upon true principals, that does not necessarily mean that someone else's different beliefs are based upon false principals.
    and how do you know what you just said is true and not false?

  6. #156
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wren View Post
    and how do you know what you just said is true and not false?
    A person who makes no assumptions will never reach any conclusions. However a priori assumptions are considered as true.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    You aren't doing this speculative hypothesis any justice. Your use of the word "nothing" is actually a descriptor for quantum fluctuations, which were questionably existent before the birth of the universe. O ye faithful.
    May I make an addendum?

    If the total energy in the universe is zero, then rather than coming from nothing, the universe is nothing.

  8. #158
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    Furthermore, since my religious beliefs do have a measurable impact, then I know they are based upon true principles.
    What about the ruthless, single-minded dictator whose life is greatly improved by his unwavering belief that he is, say, destined to become the king of the world?

    Just to cite one obvious example.

    The proposition that positive personal impact of belief in a thing is evidence that its tenants are true is a comparable to the toddler's belief that covering his eyes makes the world disappear.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    May I make an addendum?

    If the total energy in the universe is zero, then rather than coming from nothing, the universe is nothing.
    Haha. Well, there is a constant flux of energy being reciprocated within the universe. Furthermore, the universe is not only energy, but also matter. So, unless there is an equal amount of antimatter, then there is not a reciprocal for the matter.

    Either, way, this does not discount the universe as nothing. It just means the universe is caught in neutrality.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    What about the ruthless, single-minded dictator whose life is greatly improved by his unwavering belief that he is, say, destined to become the king of the world?


    The proposition that positive personal impact of belief in a thing is evidence that its tenants are true is a comparable to the toddler's belief that covering his eyes makes the world disappear.

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