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  1. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    No I don't think so.
    In most of the major religions in the world human needs are considered as sins. How could needs be sins?
    When I hear this I really laugh.

    This cant in any way at all be considered the case with Christianity, a rudimentary familiarity with the life and ministry of Jesus Christ would reveal that he constantly taught that mistakes had been heaped upon mistakes in the understanding of God and scripture, possibly the simplist example would be that of when Jesus and his followers were challenged for having worked on the sabbath and he stated that the sabbath was made for man and not vice versa.

    In fact all of Jesus' ministry was a kind of clarification, the world should be a paradise, it was meant to be, life should not be lived in terror of death or God or the afterlife, people who can not or will not experience paradise in this life wont in any afterlife. Sometimes I think Kahil Gibran's Son of Man is the best or at least the most modernist retelling of the Jesus story.

    The things in religion which most people choose to attack today, fidelity, authority, monogamy, make almost perfect sense as criteria for a good life, how, properly understood, are they or could they be a burden?

  2. #132
    Riva
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    When I hear this I really laugh.

    This cant in any way at all be considered the case with Christianity, a rudimentary familiarity with the life and ministry of Jesus Christ would reveal that he constantly taught that mistakes had been heaped upon mistakes in the understanding of God and scripture, possibly the simplist example would be that of when Jesus and his followers were challenged for having worked on the sabbath and he stated that the sabbath was made for man and not vice versa.


    The things in religion which most people choose to attack today, fidelity, authority, monogamy, make almost perfect sense as criteria for a good life, how, properly understood, are they or could they be a burden?
    Highlighted part - You have a point. Thank you for pointing it out.

    I said how could needs be sins. But since you pointed out that Jesus was showing misinterpretations about the scriptures my point about Christianity interpreting needs as sins is proven wrong.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    When I hear this I really laugh.

    This cant in any way at all be considered the case with Christianity, a rudimentary familiarity with the life and ministry of Jesus Christ would reveal that he constantly taught that mistakes had been heaped upon mistakes in the understanding of God and scripture, possibly the simplist example would be that of when Jesus and his followers were challenged for having worked on the sabbath and he stated that the sabbath was made for man and not vice versa.

    In fact all of Jesus' ministry was a kind of clarification, the world should be a paradise, it was meant to be, life should not be lived in terror of death or God or the afterlife, people who can not or will not experience paradise in this life wont in any afterlife. Sometimes I think Kahil Gibran's Son of Man is the best or at least the most modernist retelling of the Jesus story.

    The things in religion which most people choose to attack today, fidelity, authority, monogamy, make almost perfect sense as criteria for a good life, how, properly understood, are they or could they be a burden?
    You are entirely right. People who make these claims have not actually investigated Christianity deeply, or even casually, but take their ideas about religion from popular history.

    I would recommend that before people attempt to make these claims they at least try to edify themselves in regards to theology, as well as Christianity and its development from the Second Temple Period of Judaism to understand where it is really coming from. Christianity was corrupted with innumerable heresies since its inception (hence the letters of Paul to various churches, btw they are dated about 5-20 years after Christ's death). Human pride is what causes sin and perversion. Human needs are not sinful at all... it is the intent behind the needs that makes actions and thoughts sinful(or drawing one away from God). This is why it is stressed that the needs of the soul are greater than those of the body because they dictate the way you live. Christianity teaches solid morality, but a look at the modern world reveals that secularism and Science are the new religion... as far as the "New Age" movement it is just paganism repackaged. The same can be said for Gnostic Christianity, and its writings that developed around one hundred year after the Bible had been written (which is where you get the nonsense about Christ being married and such, which was popularized but the tripe that is Dan Brown's novels). Gnostic Christianity is a blending of Pagan beliefs of the Ancient Mystery Schools and of Christ's teachings.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Since faith is the essence of Christianity, any person who does not believe in miracles is not a Christian.
    The doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church is Faith and Reason.

    So to say that the essence of Christianity is faith leaves out one thousand million Roman Catholics.

    So to say that any person who does not believe in miracles is not a Christian, is to say that Roman Catholics, and other Christians, are not Christian.

    And this is the position of protestant evangelicals who call themselves christians. They strongly imply that Roman Catholics, and any other branch of Christianity except themselves, are not christians.

    This is called, "Special pleading".

  5. #135
    Senior Member Argus's Avatar
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    I am a Christian and I believe in the traditional Jesus story from a historical and doctrinal point of view.
    You can call me Charles.

  6. #136
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church is Faith and Reason.

    So to say that the essence of Christianity is faith leaves out one thousand million Roman Catholics.

    So to say that any person who does not believe in miracles is not a Christian, is to say that Roman Catholics, and other Christians, are not Christian.

    And this is the position of protestant evangelicals who call themselves christians. They strongly imply that Roman Catholics, and any other branch of Christianity except themselves, are not christians.

    This is called, "Special pleading".
    Roman Catholics emphasize reason a lot more than other Christian denominations, however, they do not hold that the belief in God is to be established solely on the grounds of reason. The concept of 'revelation' or a message passed down from God to man that man must believe not on the accont of reason but on the account God's authority plays a significant role in the Roman Catholic religious values.

    Even if the Roman Catholics were to state that they can prove God's existence by reason alone, they'd be mistaken. Hence, their position would be incoherent. Why the case is such would require a whole another discussion. My point is that any coherent view of Christianity must be founded on faith and not reason, and entertaining faith is close in meaning to believing in miracles.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #137
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    And if you don't believe in a literal historical Jesus Christ, how do you reconcile that lack of belief with a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ?
    Religious people don't tend to rely on Ti explanations for their belief systems.

    The whole idea of faith is that it's not inherently reasonable; if it was, everybody would be able to believe it in effortlessly.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Roman Catholics emphasize reason a lot more than other Christian denominations, however, they do not hold that the belief in God is to be established solely on the grounds of reason. The concept of 'revelation' or a message passed down from God to man that man must believe not on the accont of reason but on the account God's authority plays a significant role in the Roman Catholic religious values.

    Even if the Roman Catholics were to state that they can prove God's existence by reason alone, they'd be mistaken. Hence, their position would be incoherent. Why the case is such would require a whole another discussion. My point is that any coherent view of Christianity must be founded on faith and not reason, and entertaining faith is close in meaning to believing in miracles.
    Yes, you are right. Roman Catholics do believe in miracles. And yes they do believe God has revealed himself to us. However they also believe that revelation must be subject to reason.

    Of course how well they do this is open to question.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Religious people don't tend to rely on Ti explanations for their belief systems.

    The whole idea of faith is that it's not inherently reasonable; if it was, everybody would be able to believe it in effortlessly.
    Actually everyone believes in some form of faith, as it is a fundamental component of the 4 schools of thought : Ethics, Physics, Epoptics, and Rational, otherwise known as moral, natural (perception), faith, and reasoning. All of these modes of thought are intertwined within the human psyche, though individuals differ in their preference of use.

    I have a more rational explanation for my faith; but keep in mind that no rational conclusion cannot be drawn without first having faith that your rational premises are founded, and even further that your initial perceptions do not betray you:

    Firstly, I will say that I believe that there is a Supernatural Causation, and second that Jesus is the Son of God. The latter requires more faith for me than the former.

    We occupy a natural structure known as the universe. Within the universe, there are natural laws which man has established, while anything that transcends these laws is considered supernatural.

    1. For every cause, there is an effect.
    2. Matter cannot be created or destroyed.

    The universe operates on the conjoined frameworks of time and space. Before the universe existed, there was no time or space; though the Big Bang theory suggests a singularity of mass prior to the expansion of existence. However, if there was a singularity, there must have been a cause for the singularity. Given premise #2, we can deduce that it was not created, but we can hypothesize that it contracted from a prior universal state. This would indicate a sort of cosmic egg of universal timelessness. However, it would also indicate that the universe would not have a cause of creation - It would be eternally causing and effecting itself. This would defy rule #2 because matter cannot be created within the constraint of natural law . As long as we abide by natural law to describe the onset of the universe, we cannot accurately assess the act itself. Therefore, either there is a Supernatural Causation, or natural law is inaccurate.

    My faith in Jesus comes from the fact that He claimed to be the Son of God with the implementation of historical research. Plus faith. I'm still treading a path.

  10. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    This is why it is stressed that the needs of the soul are greater than those of the body because they dictate the way you live.
    I have to say that this makes a lot of sense to me having read Jung's Modern Man In Search of His Soul, at first I didnt want to, I thought it was the worst sort of spiritualist-psychobabble cross over but havng overcome that prejudice and recognised that what is important is that concepts may be narrative tools or cultural vehicles for real knowledge.

    I think that even more than repacked paganism, for even it had ritual and rules which many would not adhere to and the consumer branded paganism lite isnt even the real thing, it is thinly veiled consumerism. JHB in the thread on anarchism makes some good points that are congruent with what I'm trying to say.

    Its a good thing that people like Nietzsche challenge the Christian ethics and moral philosophy because it makes for the debate and clarifying those very thngs to heir detractors.

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