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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunes View Post
    What I'm saying is that logic is meaningless outside of closed axiomatic systems, and anyone who considers himself logical under such circumstances is delusional.
    Yes, outside a closed axiomatic system logic is rhetorical.

    Rhetorical logic proves nothing but is meant to persuade.

    So rhetorical logic is neither true nor false rather it is plausible or implausible.

    Of course axiomatic logic and rhetorical logic are often confused. Rhetorical logic is confused with axiomatic logic to give it a false air of authority. And axiomatic logic is confused with rhetorical logic in order to declare rhetorical logic to be delusional.

    It is interesting for it is a confusion that is in the interests of both parties.

  2. #102
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    I seem to remember Carnap saying all of Heidegger's work was completely meaningless, but every sentence grammatically correct.

    Once in a while, consistency is over-rated.

    Yours,

    Consistently inconsistent,

    bt

  3. #103
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Augustine taught that heretics should be tortured. So the Church ran the Inquisition under the Dominicans for 600 years. And Thomas Aquinas said he looked forward to heaven so he could enjoy seeing the suffering of the souls in hell.

    Aquinas was an obese sadist. And Augustine provided the theology of torture. And both are Fathers of the Church.
    I would say that Augustine is the one who almost single habdedly corrupted the Church and turned int into the monstrosity all the skeptics react against so much today.

    And his position there influenced the authoritarian structure of the Church, and he spawned the doctrine known as Calvinism which says that the damed are preordained to that state. They echo Aquinas in saying that the whole purpose of that is that God gets something being "glorified" in this damnation (with some such as Spurgeon even saying the redeemed are to "enjoy" this).
    From there, you got Puritanism, which said that the "elect" are predestined to wealth both here and in the afterlife, leading to self-justified racism, classism, and of course, intolerance/persecution. God favors "us", and disfavors "them". That's why we have the economic problems today, and people will still blame taxes being given to the "underserving", while the filthy rich at top are seen as "deserving", and nobody ever thinks, that the economy is in such as state of scarcity, yet there are these people who have total abudance. They all "deserve" it, people seem to think.

    And Augustine also influenced the Church's shame towards sex, perhaps the biggest cause of much untold pain and misery (though guilt). This from his own guilty conscience from his pre-conversion lifestyle. Aquinas was also said to have been influential in this somehow (monasiticism or celibate priesthood, or something).

    So people need to realize a lot of what they don't like about Christianity comes from this one source, who was 400 years after Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This is the classic blood libel against the Jews which you are repeating without shame or remorse.

    The blood libel started with the Gospel of John where he has the Jews crying out, "Let His [Jesus] blood be upon us and upon our children'.

    And the blood libel that the Jews are deicides has been carried down the millennia by christianity until it culminated in the holocaust.

    I remember a nice old Polish lady just after WW II at a Polish railway station on the way to Auschwitz, justified the holocaust by saying, "Well, they [the Jews] are Christ killers, aren't they?".
    Those people who used that rationale forgot they they were sinners, too, who necessitated the death of Christ (including the fact that the Romans would allow themselves to be so "goaded" in the first place, when they knew He was really innocent).

    That again is the corrupt influence of Augustine. Misconstruing what it means to be "chosen". The Jews were "chosen" over others in the OT, but because they "murdered", Christ, they forfeit that, and now "we" (Western gentile Christians) are the new "chosen". They thus actually end up repeating all the Gospel-denying errors of ancient Israel! (not realizing chosenness was a burden for divine service, and not special favors over others and self-righteousness).

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    One issue of whether or not to believe in miracles has to do with the practical effects of religion. A person who believes in the miraculous power of God will believe that such power can change their life. Therefore they can change behavior that they could never change without faith, and their life will improve. A person who does not believe in the miraculous power of God will not be able to dramatically change their behavior and therefore their religion has to practical purpose.

    Of course the other side to this is that once you accept miracles are possible then their is no reason to disbelieve any of the stories of the New or Old Testament. So this creates something of a dilemma for each Christian about what exactly to believe is true. Each person ends up drawing the line in a different place.
    As others have pointed out, the "miracles' of "life-change" are things that are possible to anyone. What Christians have that others might not, is the motivation to change. But when you look into how you actually "change" (as taught in Christian books, serons, etc, which has become a huge celebrity-making industry), then it's basically the same "steps", "struggles" and "daily choices" as secular self-help, only flavored with God (such as praying every day).

    This invites scrutiny of Christians's behavior, after all, we're saying we're so much better behaved than everyone else. But in practice, we're not that much better. (we try to avoid cursing, drinking, smoking, lying, stealing, cheating, and of course, non-marital sex), but it is really not impressive to people. Especially compared to the explicit physical miracles in the Bible we are likening them to. So I think we've been a bit misguided with this claim of "miracles".
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  4. #104
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    As others have pointed out, the "miracles' of "life-change" are things that are possible to anyone. What Christians have that others might not, is the motivation to change. But when you look into how you actually "change" (as taught in Christian books, serons, etc, which has become a huge celebrity-making industry), then it's basically the same "steps", "struggles" and "daily choices" as secular self-help, only flavored with God (such as praying every day).
    That's my issue -- changes attributed to God actually could occur with people of various faith persuasions, and the sole determinant seeming to be the will of the person who is changing AND their willingness to submit themselves to some form of higher authority outside themselves, in order to break the bonds of self.

    Is the Christian deity involved intimately in this process?

    From a doctrinal standpoint, yes; from an evidential standpoint, we cannot tell.

    This invites scrutiny of Christians's behavior, after all, we're saying we're so much better behaved than everyone else. But in practice, we're not that much better. (we try to avoid cursing, drinking, smoking, lying, stealing, cheating, and of course, non-marital sex), but it is really not impressive to people. Especially compared to the explicit physical miracles in the Bible we are likening them to. So I think we've been a bit misguided with this claim of "miracles".
    That's the bottom line. I don't really see an evidential difference between a Christian vs a secular person, except the Christian does submit to some sort of higher authority that encourages them to focus on others... but this same role could feasibly by played by other focii. And often professing Christians live "worse" than those who claim to be generally religious or not even religious at all, in terms of how they treat others or the attitudes they hold, so again from an evidential standpoint there is not a compelling reason here.

    I know some very decent Christians who make sacrificial love because of their particular faith, but again, it seems to me to be more the choice they make to follow a standard they believe in no matter how much it hurts, whereas they might be more inclined to see it as God actively making them want to do good. But that is a doctrinal belief, the evidence itself is only external and can say nothing about inward change.
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  5. #105
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    Fundi's creep me out. *shudders*

  6. #106
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Fundi's creep me out. *shudders*
    Cryptics wear me out.

    Can you unearth more of your stance?

  7. #107
    Senior Member wank's Avatar
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    fundamentalists. What this thread is not about.
    I expect it's a matter of misunderstanding.
    Everyone is a case study.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by wank View Post
    fundamentalists. What this thread is not about.
    I expect it's a matter of misunderstanding.
    The Copts of Egypt are not fundamental christians.

    But unfortunately the very word, 'christian', has been perverted to mean a narrow sect of christianity.

    And so the Copts of Egypt and all the Orthodox christians, such as the Russian Orthodox, and the Roman Catholics and all the other sects of christianity are not considered to be christians.

    In other words this small, narrow, protestant sect has cornered the market on the word, 'christian'.

    It is a cheap trick worthy of MBTI or astrology.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The Copts of Egypt are not fundamental christians.

    But unfortunately the very word, 'christian', has been perverted to mean a narrow sect of christianity.

    And so the Copts of Egypt and all the Orthodox christians, such as the Russian Orthodox, and the Roman Catholics and all the other sects of christianity are not considered to be christians.

    In other words this small, narrow, protestant sect has cornered the market on the word, 'christian'.

    It is a cheap trick worthy of MBTI or astrology.
    This is indeed true, and the Orthodox Church is little known in the West. Investigating Orthodoxy, so rich with liturgical tradition, is the closest we are to the original practices of Christians... unfortunately America has succeeded in ruining this sacred Church along with anything else that is holy. This Church still exists fully in Asia Minor... though they have had some of their churches destroyed by Muslims.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    This is indeed true, and the Orthodox Church is little known in the West. Investigating Orthodoxy, so rich with liturgical tradition, is the closest we are to the original practices of Christians... unfortunately America has succeeded in ruining this sacred Church along with anything else that is holy. This Church still exists fully in Asia Minor... though they have had some of their churches destroyed by Muslims.
    Yes, the Copts of Egypt claim to be the oldest living christian church.

    Unfortunately they live as dhimmis under Islam in Egypt.

    And so they are persecuted by muslims according to the Koran, the word of Allah.

    So the Copts deserve our continuing support.

    And the Copts are an object lesson for us, for they show us what will happen to us under Islam.

    And the Copts are lucky as they are designated as dhimmi by the Koran. It could be worse, they could be designated, infidels.

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