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China incline USA decline?

coberst

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China incline USA decline?

America now has an open society but few Americans have the Critical Thinking skills and intellectual sophistication required to maintain that status. The question becomes: "can a democracy survive in a world where technology is driving change at a very rapid pace?” Darwin informs us that if a species cannot adapt to its changing environment that species will soon become toast.

I suspect that China represents an example of how such a fact plays out. China, an authoritarian form of capitalism, is likely destined to become the dominant power in the 21st century because an authoritarian system can better adapt to a rapidly changing world. America displays a nation unable to quickly adapt to a rapidly changing world.

Karl Popper argues, in his book The Open Society and Its Enemies, that all ideology shares a common characteristic; a belief in infallibility.

The concept Popper illustrates in this book sounds much like the concept of a liberal democracy but his concept is more epistemological than political. It is based upon our imperfect comprehension of reality more than our structure of society. Such infallibility is an impossibility, which leads such ideological practitioners to use force to substantiate their views and such repression brings about a closed society.

Popper proposed that the open society is constructed on the recognition that our comprehension of reality is not perfect—there is realty beyond our comprehension and our will cannot compensate for that lack of comprehension. Even though the will of the power structure can manipulate the opinions of the citizens sooner or later reality will defeat the will. Truth does matter and success will not always override truth—truth being reality.
 

Valiant

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I think everyone who is conscious enough to not be 100% stuck in the paradigm of U.S. might and magic agrees.
Asian students in general outscore everyone nowadays, basically.
Obama, too, have realized this, but I don't think that it will have much impact.
And... The problem, I think, is as much a cultural one as it is about spending more time reading/being in school.

[YOUTUBE="tlIxZgnj21I"]Longer school days[/YOUTUBE]
 

Haphazard

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US already spends more time in schools than most Asian countries. It has nothing to do with hours. It has to do with quality. Teachers are not respected.
 

Valiant

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Are you advocating dictatorship?

I am, anyway!
Democracy is a nice little idea, but it is not effective.
A meritocratic capitalist authoritarian state is simply more effective.
 

Haphazard

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I am, anyway!
Democracy is a nice little idea, but it is not effective.
A meritocratic capitalist authoritarian state is simply more effective.

Treasonous scum!

oh wait.

What I mean is that it would never work in the United States like it does in China. We would be impossible to suppress.
 

nomadic

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if u look at silicon valley, there are two structures in place that stifle innovation that wasn't there the previous decade

1) Lawyers - they've raised costs of an IPO significantly through recent legislation so that small innovative firms have more difficulty accessing public capital

2) accountants - they've complicated accounting so that you can't issue options without expensing it. Basically, using the new accounting logic, if a firm can buy back shares, that should be considered a profit when they buy back shares. But its not. So there is a major hypocrisy in not being able to issue options. if you can't issue options, small innovative firms have more difficulty attracting talent.

these two moves by lawyers and accountants wanting to make a power move to make their own professions have more work, is hurting innovation and growth of small companies.

the infrastructure for the US to continue leading innovation is there. but its been polluted and pillaged by other professions so that it can never be the same again.
 

Valiant

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Treasonous scum!

oh wait.

What I mean is that it would never work in the United States like it does in China. We would be impossible to suppress.

You'd probably be left alone if you didn't slip so far behind as the middle east did, if some republican jackass decides to pick a fight and lose.

But if the world is no longer run by U.S. oil interests in half a century or so, if the world no longer fears your navies, and if your army is no better than that of China, Russia and India...
Well. Then you're just another country once again, world power status removed.
 

Haphazard

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You'd probably be left alone if you didn't slip so far behind as the middle east did, if some republican jackass decides to pick a fight and lose.

But if the world is no longer run by U.S. oil interests in half a century or so, if the world no longer fears your navies, and if your army is no better than that of China, Russia and India...
Well. Then you're just another country once again, world power status removed.

All I've got to say is, "so"?

There are so many reasons why authoritarian rule would not work:
1. Too many groups so opposing that the current government is barely enough to sate their needs
2. No basis in anything that inspires unity. Sure, there's Christianity, but again, forcing that on people is considered a huge no-no by some of the groups above
3. Too many weapons have been distributed already to people who are not afraid to use them

If anything, fracture and anarchy are more likely than anything resembling China.
 

Valiant

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What makes you think China is a meritocracy?

It probably has some nepotism as well, as does any place in time...
But chinese students perform tests deciding what they are going to be later in life.
There is ruthless competition for the top jobs, and grades decide if they qualify or not.
Of course things like talent and charm plays in, but it's still essentially meritocratic more than aristocratic, nepotistic or such.

I am sure that kids of rich parents probably have access to better education.
Is this the case?
 

Valiant

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All I've got to say is, "so"?

There are so many reasons why authoritarian rule would not work:
1. Too many groups so opposing that the current government is barely enough to sate their needs
2. No basis in anything that inspires unity. Sure, there's Christianity, but again, forcing that on people is considered a huge no-no by some of the groups above
3. Too many weapons have been distributed already to people who are not afraid to use them

If anything, fracture and anarchy are more likely than anything resembling China.

I'm not saying you can even change. That's actually the very core of the problem.
Essentially, you have already lost the game.
 

Haphazard

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I'm not saying you can even change. That's actually the very core of the problem.
Essentially, you have already lost the game.

There's a game to lose? :shock:

Then again, I've seen the theory that China and the US have already locked each other into a death spiral, haha.
 

yenom

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It probably has some nepotism as well, as does any place in time...
But chinese students perform tests deciding what they are going to be later in life.
There is ruthless competition for the top jobs, and grades decide if they qualify or not.
Of course things like talent and charm plays in, but it's still essentially meritocratic more than aristocratic, nepotistic or such.

I am sure that kids of rich parents probably have access to better education.
Is this the case?


Tests don't evaluate your performance. It only drills your ability to conform and obey.

As for ruthless competition for top jobs, alot of it depends on cronyism and luck. Who you know is more important than your actual ability. If you know someone influencial and is well connected, you more likely to get promoted and succeed than someone doesn't.

I'd say the chinese system is not a lot better than americans in selecting the cream of the crop the rule.
 

DiscoBiscuit

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Also, China's jumped the shark.

They haven't really planned well for long term growth.

EDIT: so have we, but we will come out of the current times ahead of them I think.
 

nomadic

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“Men will lie on their backs, talking about the fall of man, and never make an effort to get up” ~ Henry David Thoreau
 

Halla74

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Also, China's jumped the shark.

They haven't really planned well for long term growth.

EDIT: so have we, but we will come out of the current times ahead of them I think.

I concur.

If anything, they are going to poison themselves.

Although the U.S. growth was for the most part not well planned (thin urban sprawl, lack of conservation efforts in the overall consumption of resources, etc.) technology was relatively simple when we did boom post WWII. Now, China has the luxury of better than ever building materials, heavy equipment, computer aided design, and the history of the world's experts to hir at their will if they need to and choose to do so. They paid alot for foreign architecture services in the 90's if I'm not mistaken.

Basically I am equivocating their growth to that of a cancerous tumor. Yes, the cells divide quickly, and the mass becomes large, but that is because it is "dirty growth" and will kill the organism it is in eventually because of the complete lack of balance.

Their strength is their weakness. Like Russia (now well endowed with petroleum) China doesn't care about (1) the environment, or (2) human rights. Sure, they can grow as fast as they need to and screw everyone over in the process, but that type of growth is unsustainable in the long run.

Finally, I think it funny that Haphazard Modern Nomad noted lawyers and accountants as a source of great evil with regard to acquiring venture capital. They are the bullies on the school bus, the one's who are choosing to go rogue. You want to know the big mean gorilla on the block?

INSURANCE COMPANIES and BANKS.

They have been sodomoizing American businesses on one end, and the workers on the other end. They charge what they want, they are allowed to practive grossly inefficient business practices via protectionsit legislation, and they are crippling the middle class and small business owners (the backbones of this great nation) with their gouging on workers' compensation insurance and high cost (average quality) health care. Getting rid of their BS will save you much more overall economic inefficiency than spanking the accountants and lawyers.

Finally, let's face it, alot of Americans are lazy and don't have transferable job skills sufficient to keep up with the world economy. We are used to pulling a lever in a factory and getting $60 an hour for it, and those jobs are now gone because there are plenty of greedy third world nations that allow their people to do the same work for $2 per day. Both are extremems, a sustainable reality is between thsoe two poles, but the bottom line is that (1) jobs must remain here if AMericans are going to remain working, and (2) Companies can't have competitive labor costs if they are being gouged on core fixed expenses of operation such as labor and W.C. insurance, offering of health insurance, etc. Pensions are already gone, let's not totally screw up and lose all the jobs too. Globalization is pure evil, I'm sure of it.
 

nomadic

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the innovation infrastructure needs to be fixed.

The small tech business dream, to become the next cisco or microsoft is much harder now than it was 10 years ago.

Its harder to get an IPO because of much higher legal cost

Its harder to attract employees because you can't issue options as a start up as much.

Both make it harder to draw the best engineers, marketers, sales people, etc... from the corners of the US and the globe to make a viable product.

The US has an awesome innovation infrastructure thats been polluted by a layer of unsightly rust sabotage. Clear away the rust, and you still have the gold layer below. Only a big picture planner can fix this. This type of problem needs a direct top down approach to clear the rust. But the innovation can't be harmed because it needs its freedom.

The US still leads the world in innovation and research. Just clear away the legal and accounting cobwebs and rust Obama! Youre gonna have to stab your lawyer friends in the back who make money with the IPO rust costs, but its going to set the rest of the entrepreneurial small business community free. Give the yankee ingenuity its freedom again from legal and options expensing beauracracy, and the US will grow again for sure.

Come on, isn't ANYONE on Obama's advisor staff reading this??!!?!?! Where are they when you need them? bleh.
 
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