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  1. #1
    Member bronson's Avatar
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    Default Politics and Contemporary Christianity

    Okay, I'm sorry, but I'm only addressing this to those who claim to be Christians - of any standing. Or are greatly interested in Christianity and the teachings of Jesus.
    So if you're looking to attack religion in any way or slam Christianity just don't bother, coz I'm not interested in what you have to say.

    This isn't about apologetics, doubt, refutation of the historical Jesus, or religious debate.
    I'd just like to hear other Christian-ish peoples ideas on this.


    Okay, so, if you are Christian, or there abouts...

    1. What is your political stance

    2. How do you justify this with your beliefs in Jesus and his teachings?


    My problem:
    Raised to fear the politically Left, which I now support. Wasn't even really aware about politics etc.
    Communism was bad - because of its secular nature.

    As I began to understand politics, I couldn't believe how much Christian Churches supported Conservatism.
    Its like, if you're a Christian you're conservative. It freaked me out... coz I'm so anti-capitalist, anti-tradition (in alot of respects).

    And it just seemed so messed up because no where in the teachings of Jesus could I find anything that supported Capitalism, or traditional institutionalised religion (which I know is just practical for Christians).

    I mean, according to the 4 Biblical accounts, Jesus was all about social justice and social equality, right?
    He treated women and men more equally than others did in those days.
    He had empathy and compassion for any who were suffering.
    He insisted multiple times on the love of others above the self.
    He called religious zealots hypocrits
    And whilst he taught in the institutional synagogue, he also taught outside, in towns, in peoples homes, at parties - wherever; it wasn't just a Sunday morning.



    I know that religion and politics are cultural agents - affected in their own way and developed differently in different societies.


    BUT HOW DOES A RELIGION BASED ON SUCH VALUES IDENTIFY WITH CONSERVATISM?!
    Apart from the contemporary freedom of worship element (in my country anyway).

    Of course... things are different today.
    In my branch of the religion anyway... theres the liberal Leftys been introduced.

    Its like:


    Progressive < < < ME < < < < < < < < | > > > > > > > > > > > Conservative
    liberal < < < ME < < < < < < < < < < < | > > > > > > > > > > > > traditional
    Gender equality < ME < < < < < < < < | > > > > > > > > > > > Wives submit
    Jesus died as an ultimate example < < | > >ME> Jesus died to redeem & save
    Spiritual < Me < < < < < < < < < < < < | > > > > > > > > > > > > Religious
    Community oriented < Me < < < < < < | > > > Family and Church Institution
    Socially Just < Me < < < < < < < < < < |> > > > > >Tithe! ie Pay the leaders
    Find ways around Biblical principals < < < Me > > > Bible literalists
    Bible subjective < < < < < ME< | > > > > > > > Bible absolute truth
    Morals more relative in a way < < < < < < Me | > > > > > > Traditional Morals
    Unobtrusive < < < < < Me < < < < < | > > > > > > > > > > Highly evangelical
    Alternative < < < < < < Me < < < < < < < | > > > > > > > > > > > Orthodox
    Complex < < < < < < < < < < < < < < | > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Simple


    But both the Institutional Religious Right and Communal Spritual Left have elements that seem to go against things Jesus taught!


    Confusion reigns.

  2. #2
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    Default The Social Credit Party and LaRouche, Candidate for President of the United States

    Quote Originally Posted by bronson View Post
    I mean, according to the 4 Biblical accounts, Jesus was all about social justice and social equality, right?
    I'm a baptised and confirmed christian but rather than Jesus being all about social justice He said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's".

    In Canberra christianity is all about social justice, but I look around and can find not one Court of Social Justice. We do have Courts of Justice equal to the best in the world, but not one Court of Social Justice. So I can only conclude that social justice is the kind of justice you have when you are not having any justice.

    In fact the doctrine of Social Justice was invented in the 19th Century to counter the doctrine of Marxism.

    And the doctrine of Social Justice was directed at poor farm workers who were moving in large numbers in the 19th Century into the industrial factories. And these poor peasant farmers already had prejudices against bankers and usurers who lent them money to plant their crops. And to whom they were perennially in debt. So they were fertile ground for the doctrine of Social Justice.

    And so the christian doctrine of Social Justice was based on anti-usury. And we all know who the usurers were. They were the Jews. So the christian doctrine of Social Justice is based on age-old christian doctrine of anti-semitism.

    And indeed the christian doctrine of Social Justice led to the creation of the Social Credit Party at the beginning of the 20th Century. The key platform of the Social Credit Party was to take control of the Central Bank and the issue of all Credit. And the Social Credit Party was an anti-semitic Party that found some electoral success among farmers and anti-semites in New Zealand and Canada.

    And today the doctrines of Social Credit have found their home with Lyndon Hermyle LaRouche, Jr. who perennially stands for President of the United States. Why, just yesterday I was taking to The Citizens Electoral Council of Australia (CEC), part of the LaRouche Movement. And they told me to, "Fuck off". A similar response I get when I critique MBTI or astrology here.

    And interestingly the Church of England did not adopt the doctrine of Social Justice but the Roman Catholic Church did invent and adopt the doctrine of Social Justice. And as a result the Church of England lost the loyalty of the industrial poor while the Roman Catholic Church kept the loyalty of the industrial poor. So much so the Church of England was described as the Tory Party at prayer.

    And it not only the christians who use the doctrine of Social Justice for propaganda purposes, Hamas the terrorist organisation also uses the doctrine of Social Justice to good effect.

    In short the doctrine of Social Justice is based on anti-semitism. And is the kind of justice you have when you are not having any justice. And naturally today it appeals to the bien-pensant, quite like astrology or MBTI.

  3. #3
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I'm a baptised and confirmed christian but rather than Jesus being all about social justice He said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's".

    In Canberra christianity is all about social justice, but I look around and can find not one Court of Social Justice. We do have Courts of Justice equal to the best in the world, but not one Court of Social Justice. So I can only conclude that social justice is the kind of justice you have when you are not having any justice.

    In fact the doctrine of Social Justice was invented in the 19th Century to counter the doctrine of Marxism.

    And the doctrine of Social Justice was directed at poor farm workers who were moving in large numbers in the 19th Century into the industrial factories. And these poor peasant farmers already had prejudices against bankers and usurers who lent them money to plant their crops. And to whom they were perennially in debt. So they were fertile ground for the doctrine of Social Justice.

    And so the christian doctrine of Social Justice was based on anti-usury. And we all know who the usurers were. They were the Jews. So the christian doctrine of Social Justice is based on age-old christian doctrine of anti-semitism.

    And indeed the christian doctrine of Social Justice led to the creation of the Social Credit Party at the beginning of the 20th Century. The key platform of the Social Credit Party was to take control of the Central Bank and the issue of all Credit. And the Social Credit Party was an anti-semitic Party that found some electoral success among farmers and anti-semites in New Zealand and Canada.

    And today the doctrines of Social Credit have found their home with Lyndon Hermyle LaRouche, Jr. who perennially stands for President of the United States. Why, just yesterday I was taking to The Citizens Electoral Council of Australia (CEC), part of the LaRouche Movement. And they told me to, "Fuck off". A similar response I get when I critique MBTI or astrology here.

    And interestingly the Church of England did not adopt the doctrine of Social Justice but the Roman Catholic Church did invent and adopt the doctrine of Social Justice. And as a result the Church of England lost the loyalty of the industrial poor while the Roman Catholic Church kept the loyalty of the industrial poor. So much so the Church of England was described as the Tory Party at prayer.

    And it not only the christians who use the doctrine of Social Justice for propaganda purposes, Hamas the terrorist organisation also uses the doctrine of Social Justice to good effect.

    In short the doctrine of Social Justice is based on anti-semitism. And is the kind of justice you have when you are not having any justice. And naturally today it appeals to the bien-pensant.
    Yet again, this is incorrect. Christian social justice was not conceived as a Jew-hating idea to subvert support from the Marxists. If you'd take the time to check out Catholic Social Teaching, you will find that there are condemnations against discrimination and persecution of Jews and others. It's not just about "poor farmers" as Social Teaching also includes stances against capital punishment, abortion, stances for environmental concern...the list goes on and on with issues discrediting your assumption.

    While there are certainly sects of Christianity that are blatantly strong conservatives, this is not universal for all Christian groups. One thing to realize is that even those conservative groups are not subverting Jeus' message about social justice. More accurately, they don't trust the government in handling that role. For example, they prefer to depend on charity over taxes for welfare programs, because they think charity is more efficient. Also their stances on gay marriage and abortion clearly line up with conservatives platforms. So while in terms of government function, they prefer the government not to be the primary agent of social justice, that is not to say that they have no concern for social justice at all.

    1. I'm conservative politically, raised Catholic

    2. I don't sense any contradictions of being able to live my understanding of Jesus, while being a conservative.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  4. #4
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I'm a baptised and confirmed christian but rather than Jesus being all about social justice He said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's".
    Note that, in context, he said this in context of paying taxes -- the Jewish leaders were trying to get him marked as a political dissident in the eyes of the Romans and had hoped that they could get him to encourage people to not pay taxes, but he wisely decided to not go there. It didn't fit his intended purpose, according to scripture.

    Not sure how that impacts the rest of your post.
    I won't debate it more here, but we can talk about it in a different thread if there's an issue.

    (Meanwhile, I'm going to sit this one out for awhile and read some other responses as they come in...)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #5
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    In class now, but when I get the time, I'm gonna contribute.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Christian social justice was not conceived as a Jew-hating idea to subvert support from the Marxists.
    Quite recently the Pope has admitted the Roman Catholic Church was, and I quote, "anti-Judaic", for two thousand years. And this Pope publicly apologised for the Church's anti-Judaicism.

    Of course, "anti-Judaism", is a weasel word for anti-semitism.

    And the Pope couldn't bring himself to use the word, anti-semitism. For, two thousand years of anti-semitism prepared the ground for the holocaust of the Jews.

    And although the Church is prepared to admit to anti-Judaicism, it is not prepared to take any responsibility for the holocaust.

    Germany, for instance, has been prepared to take responsibility for the holocaust and has been paying monetary reparation to the Jewish victims ever since.

    It's bad enough that the Church has been forced to pay vast monetary reparations to its victims of child rape. Paying compensation to the Jews would be too much. You can understand their position.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Note that, in context, he said this in context of paying taxes -- the Jewish leaders were trying to get him marked as a political dissident in the eyes of the Romans and had hoped that they could get him to encourage people to not pay taxes, but he wisely decided to not go there. It didn't fit his intended purpose, according to scripture.
    Jesus thought the world was coming to an end in his own lifetime or that of his followers, so He had no interest in social justice. He was interested in salvation.

    Social justice was an invention of the 19th Century in order to keep peasants, who were moving off the farm into the industrial factories, from being lost to Marxism and to keep them loyal to the Church. And it worked in Europe but not in England. For the Church of England abandoned the industrial poor and put them in the Workhouse.

    And this was evident in Australia where the Church of England served the Ascendant rich while the Roman Catholic Church served the poor, particularly by providing education and hospitals. And to this day the Roman Catholic Church runs a vast school and University system in Australia, at government expense, as well as hospitals and hospices.

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Jesus thought the world was coming to an end in his own lifetime or that of his followers, so He had no interest in social justice. He was interested in salvation.
    Tied in with his invitation to become part of the "kingdom of God," yes.
    Which sort of offered a new way to live, a kingdom run by new rules -- salvation meant leaving one world and entering another, so to speak. This isn't social justice per se but some people might mistake it as such.

    So how do modern Christians view the implementation of social justice vs this new "kingdom"? Is there a difference between what they are doing/perceiving and what Jesus seemed to suggest?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Tied in with his invitation to become part of the "kingdom of God," yes.
    Which sort of offered a new way to live, a kingdom run by new rules -- salvation meant leaving one world and entering another, so to speak. This isn't social justice per se but some people might mistake it as such.

    So how do modern Christians view the implementation of social justice vs this new "kingdom"? Is there a difference between what they are doing/perceiving and what Jesus seemed to suggest?
    Social justice is as bogus as astrology or MBTI.

    Justice here is delivered by a properly constituted Court. And there is not one, not one, Social Justice Court in all of Australia. So not one Australian Subject can get social justice in Court. And there is no, absolutely no, social justice legislation in Australia to which a Subject can appeal.

    So a reasonable person would conclude that social justice is the kind of justice you are having when you are not having any justice.

    So social justice is a tool of propaganda and is bogus.

    And the proof of the pudding is in the eating as I get the same response when I critique social justice to the American LaRouche Party or when I critique the American MBTI.

    And both the LaRouche Party and MBTI found their origins in the first part of the 20th Century. And both are tarred with the same brush.

    But look, you can vote for LaRouche to be your President, but we don't want him here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Social justice is as bogus as astrology or MBTI.

    Justice here is delivered by a properly constituted Court. And there is not one, not one, Social Justice Court in all of Australia. So not one Australian Subject can get social justice in Court. And there is no, absolutely no, social justice legislation in Australia to which a Subject can appeal.

    So a reasonable person would conclude that social justice is the kind of justice you are having when you are not having any justice.

    So social justice is a tool of propaganda and is bogus.

    And the proof of the pudding is in the eating as I get the same response when I critique social justice or when I critique astrology or MBTI to the LaRouche Party or Typology Central.
    I can move this to another thread if you'd like to start a new topic, otherwise stick with the OP please (as I'll try to do). Thnx.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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