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  1. #21
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Politics is the art of the possible. It is about competing goods. It is about compromise. And it is about compromise that is determined by the vote.

    Whereas justice is determined by the rule of law. And only the Courts are qualified to determine the rule of law. Only the Courts can deliver justice. To look for justice in politics has the smell of totalitarianism.

    I am sure you know that the first thing the totalitarians do is to take justice our of the hands of the Courts into their own hands.
    I never advocate taking away judicial review and sentencing away from the courts.

    But every other governmental official still has the obligation to act justly. Nobody prefers an irresponsible executive or legislature. After all, what would you say about an executive order allowing unrestricted torture? While the Supreme Court has the rightful power to overturn laws, Congress should at least try to legislate according to justice and the Constitution. After all, who would want a band of thieves to decide who gets confirmed as judges?
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  2. #22
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    C'mon, next you will be telling me that Jesus is on the Political Left.

    And I guess your Political Right will tell me He is on the Right.

    None of our politicians would dare to claim that Jesus is on their side, 'cause we would laugh them out of Parliament.
    Nice of you to assume you know where I'm coming from.

    I would laugh at the idea that politics are somehow separate from personal morality. There's no absolutely "rational" way to govern - morality and values definitely play a role. For many people, their personal values are either dictated by, or reflected in, their faith. I have no problem with any candidate making the link between their personal values (whether religious values or secular values) and the political stances they choose. That has nothing to do with claiming Jesus is on one side or the other.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Here we vote for politicians to legislate and judges are appointed to deliver justice.

    For a politician to deliver justice or a judge to legislate, would be to violate the Separation of Powers.

    It would be simply unconstitutional.
    Wait a minute... are you saying that legislation has nothing to do with justice?

    I'm reading the back and forth between you and Take Five on this point, but I'm still stuck on this original claim... if your parliament really doesn't take justice into consideration when making laws, I sure am glad I live in the States.

  4. #24
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    I never advocate taking away judicial review and sentencing away from the courts.

    But every other governmental official still has the obligation to act justly. Nobody prefers an irresponsible executive or legislature. After all, what would you say about an executive order allowing unrestricted torture? While the Supreme Court has the rightful power to overturn laws, Congress should at least try to legislate according to justice and the Constitution. After all, who would want a band of thieves to decide who gets confirmed as judges?
    Just as you have two Parties of business, we have one Party of business and one Social Democratic Party. Both have quite different values. No one expects either Party to deliver justice. It's a kind of comical thought.

    No, the reason we have a Government and a Loyal Opposition is to limit the power of either one. And this is the purpose of liberal democracy - to limit power.

    We don't want our politicians to deliver justice. We want to limit their power over us.

    We know when a politician is seeking to increase their power over us because they talk about giving us justice. And when a politician starts to mouth the word, 'justice', we know they want more power over us.

    And when they start to tell us that God is on their side, we know they really want power.

    And we have found the best way to limit the power of overweening politicians is to laugh at them.

    I do notice that your politicians often mention God. But if they start mentioning God and justice, it might be time to start laughing.

    Of course you must have a sense of humour to start with. And unfortunately, the first casualty of Revolution is irony.

    So I guess you are stuck with God and justice.

  5. #25
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Nice of you to assume you know where I'm coming from.
    That's Victor for you. :rolli:

  6. #26
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Just as you have two Parties of business, we have one Party of business and one Social Democratic Party. Both have quite different values. No one expects either Party to deliver justice. It's a kind of comical thought.

    No, the reason we have a Government and a Loyal Opposition is to limit the power of either one. And this is the purpose of liberal democracy - to limit power.

    We don't want our politicians to deliver justice. We want to limit their power over us.

    We know when a politician is seeking to increase their power over us because they talk about giving us justice. And when a politician starts to mouth the word, 'justice', we know they want more power over us.

    And when they start to tell us that God is on their side, we know they really want power.

    And we have found the best way to limit the power of overweening politicians is to laugh at them.

    I do notice that your politicians often mention God. But if they start mentioning God and justice, it might be time to start laughing.

    Of course you must have a sense of humour to start with. And unfortunately, the first casualty of Revolution is irony.

    So I guess you are stuck with God and justice.
    In America we also have a two party system. Why is there more than one party? For one thing, because people have different conceptions of justice. The majority of Americans are not affiliated with a party, so while neither party is right all the time, we do want our politicians to act with integrity and a concern for justice.

    So while I don't expect all that justice encompasses, such as some elements of social justice, to fall under the jurisdiction of governance, I do expect my officials to act justly according to the Constitution and am not surprised when personal beliefs relate to political actions.

    I'm all for preservation of liberty, sometimes by limiting government control. But the government does have control over some things, and accordingly, an obligation to justice is in order, espeicially on the individual level. We ideally don't elect parties. We elect individuals; individuals that will be responsible for appointing and confirming protectors of justice.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  7. #27
    Sniffles
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    bronson, it's important not to impose anarchronisms here. For one, capitalism did not exist in Jesus' time, nor did concepts of "Left" and "Right". That emerged out of the post-1789 political scene with the fall of the French monarchy. So to claim Jesus was of the "Left" or the "Right" isn't really going to get you far.

  8. #28
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    bronson, it's important not to impose anarchronisms here. For one, capitalism did not exist in Jesus' time, nor did concepts of "Left" and "Right". That emerged out of the post-1789 political scene with the fall of the French monarchy. So to claim Jesus was of the "Left" or the "Right" isn't really going to get you far.
    I agree, that's a critical point. Today, I don't think it's a worthwhile goal to figure out whether Jesus is on your political team. Forces change over time, and right now I don't think any party is completely in tune with the biblical Jesus. For one thing, many of institutions, priorities, and ideas did not exist in Jesus' time. Our best bet is to discern for ourselves what we think fits in with our view of what is best for our country.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  9. #29
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    I agree, that's a critical point. Today, I don't think it's a worthwhile goal to figure out whether Jesus is on your political team. Forces change over time, and right now I don't think any party is completely in tune with the biblical Jesus. For one thing, many of institutions, priorities, and ideas did not exist in Jesus' time. Our best bet is to discern for ourselves what we think fits in with our view of what is best for our country.
    It's one thing to claim that Christian principles inform your political views; it's another to outright claim that Christ would be in your ideological camp. Remember that taking the Lord's name in vain means more than just cussing, but also means invoking God's name for one's selfish purposes.

  10. #30
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    The sentence that pops into my head on this is, "My kingdom is not of this world." Both parties support issues that are in line with Jesus' teachings as well as other issues that are against Jesus' teachings. Essentially I think each Christian should feel free to support whatever party or candidate that they like, but also be on guard from putting too much faith into any one candidate or party.
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