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  1. #11
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I can move this to another thread if you'd like to start a new topic, otherwise stick with the OP please (as I'll try to do). Thnx.
    Contemporary christianity led directly to the Social Credit Party and to the LaRouche Political Movement.

    This is directly on the topic.

    To move my posts would be partisan.

  2. #12
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Quite recently the Pope has admitted the Roman Catholic Church was, and I quote, "anti-Judaic", for two thousand years. And this Pope publicly apologised for the Church's anti-Judaicism.

    Of course, "anti-Judaism", is a weasel word for anti-semitism.

    And the Pope couldn't bring himself to use the word, anti-semitism. For, two thousand years of anti-semitism prepared the ground for the holocaust of the Jews.

    And although the Church is prepared to admit to anti-Judaicism, it is not prepared to take any responsibility for the holocaust.

    Germany, for instance, has been prepared to take responsibility for the holocaust and has been paying monetary reparation to the Jewish victims ever since.

    It's bad enough that the Church has been forced to pay vast monetary reparations to its victims of child rape. Paying compensation to the Jews would be too much. You can understand their position.
    Wrong again.

    1. Anti-Judaism does not necessarily mean anti-semitism. The Church may have wanted Jews to convert to Christianity, but this was not necessarily based on racist ideology.

    2. Actually, since you are inclined to use Pope speeches as evidence, perhaps you should peruse the one given by John Paul II in which he apologized for Church inaction during the holocaust. Indeed, the Church has reaffirmed the everlasting legitimacy of the Jewish covenant with God, and made religious freedom a top foreign policy priority. You may also wish to tell others how priests were murdered along with the Jews during the holocaust, and how after WWII, the Soviets relentlessly made efforts to repress the Church. During Nazi occupation of Poland, the future Pope John Paul II studied clandestinely in a secret seminary, due to Nazi repression of Polish intelligentsia.

    3. I can't stress enough how bogus it is to assume that Catholic Social Justice was not aimed at taking away support from Marxism. If it had any purely political reasons behind it, it was to preserve the legitimacy of the papacy. You'll find that the papacy's emphasis on spiritual and social concerns increased after the Papal States were dissolved. While certain Pope's were strongly opposed to Marxism and Leninism, there is too much within Catholic Social Justice too limit it to any particular political philosophy. It's more than politics. Anyone with a basic knowledge and understanding of the teaching knows this.

    4. It is of course ridiculous to say that social justice equates to no justice. What is true, is that people disagree on what social justice is. Certainly from a viewpoint of Christianity, social justice is not limited to governmental laws and policies. Though just war, fair wages, and environmental concern may and should be addressed by the government, it is not the sole responsibility of any government to take care of these things. Government is not the only arbiter of justice--justice not covered by courts and laws is the responsibility of individuals, so long as those actions are within the boundaries of just laws. Social Justice is justice, but not everything it encompasses is the responsibility of government alone. And aside from that, who ever said that governments were always just?
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #13
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    I'm a Christian, and I'm very solidly on the political Left. I agree with most of what you say: it baffles me that so many Christians can draw a conservative message from the teachings of Christ. You're definitely right about the social justice component of Christ's message, as well as His teachings on peace.

    Unlike you though, I'm not anti-tradition - I actually like tradition very much, and while I'm pretty far to the Left on most issues, I do have some issues with the cultural Left. I don't really have a political stance on abortion, because I really can see both sides. I am sincerely concerned by divorce rates and particularly with children being raised by single parents. But even those can be addressed in part with liberal solutions - zeroing in on anti-poverty programs, access to marriage counseling, etc... I do support same-sex marriage, and believe that marriage itself is a social stabilizer and should be encouraged in society.

    I don't know that I'm a good example of the Christian Left, mainly because I haven't attended church regularly in more than 20 years. I was raised Baptist, but my family left the church when I was 8. I tried a few of the liberal churches (United Church of Christ, specifically) but it didn't really fit. The social justice message was there, but at times it felt a little more like a community service group than a church. I've recently considered converting to Catholicism; the mix of social justice and traditionalism has an appeal there, even though I wouldn't agree with some of the stricter teachings.

    You're not alone though: there's an active and growing community of Left-leaning Christians.

  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    It's my understanding that the Right actively constructed their position to include the demographic of Christians by including moral positions in their political platform that corresponds to the morals held by the majority of Christianity. In this way the Right is an interesting mix of military hawks, Wall Street Capitalists, and the Religious Right. Those are three groups that don't necessarily share the same position or philosophy, but in order to gain a majority the political Right takes positions that accommodates each group, since their interests are not seen as directly overlapping. The OP points out certain ways that the underlying philosophies of these different groups actually do overlap and conflict. It is a compartmentalized, rather than a homogeneous political platform that currently forms the Right.

    Edit: Contemporary Christianity has also responded to underlying philosophical conflict in the Right by adapting its own philosophies in the form of the Prosperity Gospel which is a religious component to the ideals of Capitalism.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  5. #15
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    I'm a Christian, and I'm very solidly on the political Left. I agree with most of what you say: it baffles me that so many Christians can draw a conservative message from the teachings of Christ. You're definitely right about the social justice component of Christ's message, as well as His teachings on peace.

    Unlike you though, I'm not anti-tradition - I actually like tradition very much, and while I'm pretty far to the Left on most issues, I do have some issues with the cultural Left. I don't really have a political stance on abortion, because I really can see both sides. I am sincerely concerned by divorce rates and particularly with children being raised by single parents. But even those can be addressed in part with liberal solutions - zeroing in on anti-poverty programs, access to marriage counseling, etc... I do support same-sex marriage, and believe that marriage itself is a social stabilizer and should be encouraged in society.

    I don't know that I'm a good example of the Christian Left, mainly because I haven't attended church regularly in more than 20 years. I was raised Baptist, but my family left the church when I was 8. I tried a few of the liberal churches (United Church of Christ, specifically) but it didn't really fit. The social justice message was there, but at times it felt a little more like a community service group than a church. I've recently considered converting to Catholicism; the mix of social justice and traditionalism has an appeal there, even though I wouldn't agree with some of the stricter teachings.

    You're not alone though: there's an active and growing community of Left-leaning Christians.
    I can definitely see where Ruthie is coming from, not that I'm on the political left. I get the sense that there are some churches blatantly conservative, and others blatantly liberal, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

    Here is one issue with which I am proud of my Catholic Church. Our policy on voting is that each person must prayerfully discern which political candidate will best carry out justice. It serves no party inherently, and Catholics are fairly evenly split between Democrat and Republican in the US. You can easily see the tension within the US Conference of Bishops, that are ardently anti-abortion, pro-social welfare, and anti-death penalty.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  6. #16
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Our policy on voting is that each person must prayerfully discern which political candidate will best carry out justice.
    Here we vote for politicians to legislate and judges are appointed to deliver justice.

    For a politician to deliver justice or a judge to legislate, would be to violate the Separation of Powers.

    It would be simply unconstitutional.

  7. #17
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    1. Anti-Judaism does not necessarily mean anti-semitism. The Church may have wanted Jews to convert to Christianity, but this was not necessarily based on racist ideology.
    Pff

  8. #18
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Here we vote for politicians to legislate and judges are appointed to deliver justice.

    For a politician to deliver justice or a judge to legislate, would be to violate the Separation of Powers.

    It would be simply unconstitutional.
    In America legislation is supposed to be just in the first place. We like to hold all of our politicians responsible, and disagree that just actions are not only the responsibility of the courts. After all, the Supreme Court Justices are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate, and just legislators are probably more likely to confirm just judges. I, as an American, prefer to see justice being served in all levels of government, though I am disappointed at times.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    I'm a Christian, and I'm very solidly on the political Left.
    C'mon, next you will be telling me that Jesus is on the Political Left.

    And I guess your Political Right will tell me He is on the Right.

    None of our politicians would dare to claim that Jesus is on their side, 'cause we would laugh them out of Parliament.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    In America legislation is supposed to be just in the first place. We like to hold all of our politicians responsible, and disagree that just actions are not only the responsibility of the courts. After all, the Supreme Court Justices are nominated by the President and confirmed by the Senate, and just legislators are probably more likely to confirm just judges. I, as an American, prefer to see justice being served in all levels of government, though I am disappointed at times.
    Politics is the art of the possible. It is about competing goods. It is about compromise. And it is about compromise that is determined by the vote.

    Whereas justice is determined by the rule of law. And only the Courts are qualified to determine the rule of law. Only the Courts can deliver justice. To look for justice in politics has the smell of totalitarianism.

    I am sure you know that the first thing the totalitarians do is to take justice our of the hands of the Courts into their own hands.

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