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  1. #1
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    Default The Exodus and Astrology

    If we ask any astronomer, they will tell us astrology is untrue.

    And if we ask any Israeli archaeologist, they will tell us the Exodus didn't occur.

    But astrology is the foundation stone of most religions, and the Exodus is the a founding story of the Bible. But both are untrue.

    In other words, when we believe in astrology or the Bible, we are believing something which is untrue.

    This is massive cognitive dissonance which is met with dissociation and denial followed by shooting the messenger.

    The dissociation, denial and shooting the messenger are understandable for cognitive dissonance is emotionally painful and naturally we instinctively avoid pain.

    And in particular when we don't understand why the pain is occurring, we naturally avoid it.

    But once the cat is out of the bag. When all astronomers and all Israeli archaeologists tell us our beliefs are false, the pain is inevitable. And it is the pain of loss - the loss of our beliefs. And no matter what we do, the cat won't get back in the bag.

    So to become whole again, to become wholesome, we need to mourn. We need to mourn the loss of our beliefs. And our only consolation is that we can mourn together.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Or we simply discard the truth as a perception of others, and remain to hold our own perception as truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    ...So to become whole again, to become wholesome, we need to mourn. We need to mourn the loss of our beliefs. And our only consolation is that we can mourn together.
    i think you are correct in that the loss of prior-held worldviews is greatly salved by the presence of community. It's hard to grieve alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    Or we simply discard the truth as a perception of others, and remain to hold our own perception as truth.
    This is what I often seen in terms of community (esp of religious or political nature); instead of accepting the dissonance and starting to work through what it means and accept potential loss, the community occupies the role of wedge to deny/decry the insight and refuse to accept it in order to avoid the pain of dissonance.

    Both ways deal with dissonance, one by helping people accept the new truth, the other by reinforcing their commitment to the old.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    Or we simply discard the truth as a perception of others, and remain to hold our own perception as truth.
    And turn into close-minded fools. Yes, an all too common pattern.


    Nice topic Victor. And illustrates my problem with people who argue beliefs will always be about blind faith at the end of the day. Beliefs aren't just about faith. Reason should play a part too. It helps temper faith. You must have a reason to believe. Unless you don't care about the truth or objectivism at all...

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    Actually scholars disagree about details of the Exodus. Usually there is at least a kernel of historical veracity in biblical text, which is not the same as a kernel of truth.

    Remember that in ancient times, the effort to record history objectively was not considered important. This is a more modern way of proceeding. In fact any quick look at Genesis will reveal quite obvious inconsistencies, but these inconsistencies were not important to the ancient Israelites.

    So we must consider that the Bible has truth in a different sense, perhaps about a number of things.

    That being said, I would not advocate taking the biblical texts at literal face value.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    And turn into close-minded fools. Yes, an all too common pattern.


    Nice topic Victor. And illustrates my problem with people who argue beliefs will always be about blind faith at the end of the day. Beliefs aren't just about faith. Reason should play a part too. It helps temper faith. You must have a reason to believe. Unless you don't care about the truth or objectivism at all...
    Agreed. And on that note, sources on the claims about Israeli archaelogists would be helpful.

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    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    In other words, when we believe in astrology or the Bible, we are believing something which is untrue.

    This is massive cognitive dissonance which is met with dissociation and denial followed by shooting the messenger.
    That's a bit literal, innit? I mean, there's historical fact and then there's the wider form of all things. Assorted facts produce (that is, are) instances of the wider form, but the form ceases only when... well, maybe never. It'd be nice to have a historical Jesus to dig up and keep in a box, but what if one could decide that whatever Jesus was, we have a Jesus-hole in our hearts and will love whatever "God" fits there. (And presumably therefore should spend time looking for the right God, too.)

    Not that I believe in God. I'm just saying, some of us run on introverted intuition and stand on hills yelling for all to hear "Facts, Shmackts!"

    Can other people do this too? Or does God really die when all the relics are finally discredited?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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    Are you well versed in Biblical/Christian scholarship?

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    ha. I mean, I'm probably one of the more educated on that matter (after decades of reading within the church), and I know I don't consider myself well-versed... there is just too much out there to examine. You can be a specialist in one particular area and actually know something pertinent or you can be a generalist who pulls many things together but has to be careful you read representative blends of sources.

    But the general consensus of archaeologists today does seems skeptical of Exodus as specifically portrayed in the text. It didn't help that for decades the Bible was being used to validate archaeology rather than archaeology being used to validate the Bible, so it set up an impression that "everything the Bible says is historically true" where the evidence is far more thin and ambiguous.

    Just do a Google search on it and pick up texts such as Finkelstein's. The problem more at this point is evaluating the authority of the people making the claims, so you know you can better trust their conclusions.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    If we ask any astronomer, they will tell us astrology is untrue.

    And if we ask any Israeli archaeologist, they will tell us the Exodus didn't occur.

    But astrology is the foundation stone of most religions, and the Exodus is the a founding story of the Bible. But both are untrue.

    In other words, when we believe in astrology or the Bible, we are believing something which is untrue.

    This is massive cognitive dissonance which is met with dissociation and denial followed by shooting the messenger..


    The dissociation, denial and shooting the messenger are understandable for cognitive dissonance is emotionally painful and naturally we instinctively avoid pain.

    And in particular when we don't understand why the pain is occurring, we naturally avoid it.

    But once the cat is out of the bag. When all astronomers and all Israeli archaeologists tell us our beliefs are false, the pain is inevitable. And it is the pain of loss - the loss of our beliefs. And no matter what we do, the cat won't get back in the bag.

    So to become whole again, to become wholesome, we need to mourn. We need to mourn the loss of our beliefs. And our only consolation is that we can mourn together.
    The problem is that each believes the other is untrue, when in fact neither party knows for sure. This is how we are as people, we dont believe what we dont know or dont understand. Welcome to our internal world and cognitive dissonance. The struggle that is keeping your eyes open and learning how to let go of your beliefs that you hold onto. Until you let go of your beliefs you are limited in what you know, what you see, you are choosing to be ignorant because being wrong is painful and that is where we must have those special people by our side. Those that can carry you out of the pain, the hurt. The people who can hold your hand through the cognitive dissonance that our internal world holds. Someone who will turn to you and say, "WE can figure this out, WE can get through this"

    edit: This is why some turn to Exodus or Astrology or other beliefs. They are looking for a hand to hold that will make everything ok. When inturn they are simply leading themselves into what causes the pain.

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