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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    That's incorrect. There have been Egyptian and at least one other artifact that I know of which indicate the existence of that "realm." A ancient slab boasting of an Egyptian triumph specifically refers to a victorious battle against "the House of David." There is more scholarly and archaeological work that indicates the existence as well. So while a complete absence of plausibility would fit your philosophy, it won't be that easy.
    I feel like we're arguing extremities here. The question isn't "Is it 100% true all the Bible stuff is historical or is it 100% true it's not?", it's "what amount of evidence can reasonably be expected to be around in support of Biblical historicity, and can we find it?" ... and so far we've got a major issue where (I believe) at this point the various incarnations Jericho has been dated a century off the Biblical record and there is very very scant evidence of any direct Biblical support, and it's not even clear a kingdom of David/Solomon's size existed in the time frame it needs to have existed in.

    But I don't feel comfortable committing to that or arguing it, because I don't feel I have studied enough of the variety of sources to be reasonable sure. However, that's what my preliminary overview has suggested so far.

    It's funny to me that you can ask a religious believer what evidence there is of the Bible historically and they'll immediately tell you "Oh, archeology supports the Bible and says it's true"... but if you ask them for the specific evidence, almost all of them will have nothing to say. Only a small percentage even have an inkling of what data is out there, even in support of their faith, let alone against it. Then again, many unbelievers don't really seem to have much specific idea either.

    it's like a battle of general assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It's nice to read your replies but what is extraordinary in all this is that it is Israeli archaeologists who have found that the Exodus didn't' occur.

    Just think, they made this finding while employed by the Israeli government and while working in Israel. And as you know, a founding story of modern Israel is the Exodus.

    So to declare the Exodus didn't occur is extraordinary.
    Despite the generalization within this argument, I agree it's one of the larger "road signs" to me that the position that Exodus didn't occur needs to be taken seriously and not just sloughed off; I always naturally give more weight to people who voice arguments that seem to run against their personal interests... because they must know SOMETHING compelling, and there's less chance they are being dragged along by inner bias.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    If we ask any astronomer, they will tell us astrology is untrue.
    * The visionary English astrophysicist and astronomer Dr Percy Seymour threw his hat into the ring by publishing Astrology: The Evidence of Science, appearing in April 1989. In his groundbreaking book Dr Seymour, a chartered member of the Institute of Physics and Fellow member of the Royal Astronomical Society, explained his revolutionary theories of "celestial harmonics" in regard to why he felt astrology may work in the first place. He proposes astrology works by some type of magnetic field interaction.

    An Astronomer's Magnetic Theory of Astrology and
    How Planetary Motion Orchestrates Solar Activity and Geomagnetism:
    Dr. Percy Seymour Interview

  3. #33
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    There is a lot I want to refute here, but I think there is one root problem that branches out to all other elements of this debate.

    Because some Christians today interpret the Bible literally, and because for centuries most did, people with a certain unfriendly attitude toward religion use the fact that recent findings have (convincingly) called into question the historical validity of the Bible in order to discredit entirely all belief systems related to the Bible. That is absolutely wrong, and unfortunate.

    Although, there are certainly groups of Christians that are biblical literalists and some others who are awaiting the end of the world, this is not even close to the majority of Christians. So while archaeological findings that indicate historical inaccuracies in the Bible may be a huge problem for the fundamentalist minority, it does not in any way pose a major problem for other Christians. I can tell you from experience that we Catholics don't consider this issue to be of a dangerous concern. For our theology, whether or not the texts are historically accurate is not central. And that's the point--the Bible is not a history textbook, so nothing in this thread takes away from it's theological valor.

    People are basing their evaluations of the Bible on criteria that are not central to the Bible's purpose. To say all belief is unfounded just based on what Finkelstein and others say, is probably not the wisest of decisions.

    That was the major issue I had in mind.

    Further, the scholars who have argued against the historical inaccuracy of the Exodus story are not all Israeli. They also don't always say that Exodus never happened in any way, shape, or form. What seems to be a prevalent idea is that Hyksos, Semites from Egypt, moved to Canaan, and Canaanites were already there. The issue is that the Hyksos were not a huge group that came all at once under a central leader, that the historical events differ in degree from the biblical portrayal. That being said, there is likely some historical validity to the Exodus story. Think. Why would an ancient people record in their writings that they were slaves? That makes them look weak. Making your own nation look weak is not what happens in ancient "history," which is not the same discipline of history that we are familiar with.

    I'm not saying that minimalists have no persuasiveness at all. I'm saying that what they say is not always correct, that there are non-minimalists scholars, and that even within the minimalist field there is disagreement.

    Another point. Theology, as a discipline, is clearly not irrelevant. Nor are theologians all biased bigots. That is an absurd generalization.

    Another point. It is not clear that America was founded on religion. Some colonies were chartered by religious sects emigrating from england, sure. Other colonies, like Virginia, were made for business and trade. Other colonies were simply proprietary, like Maryland. In addition, how do you account for the fact that some Founding Fathers, like Jefferson, were deists? To say America was founded on religion is highly questionable. Regardless of that, many in the US do not base politics on religion today.

  4. #34
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    I forgot to post this interesting article on Minimalism. Enjoy.

    http://www.basarchive.org.ezproxy.sj...8&UserID=2311&

  5. #35
    Member JFNI's Avatar
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    People don't necissarly believe what is true. They believe what is true to them.And for me, astrology is true. I quite enjoy it and find it sufficient. The deeper you get into it, the more you realize that.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JFNI View Post
    People don't necissarly believe what is true. They believe what is true to them.And for me, astrology is true. I quite enjoy it and find it sufficient. The deeper you get into it, the more you realize that.
    If something is true, surely it is true for everybody?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    To say America was founded on religion is highly questionable. Regardless of that, many in the US do not base politics on religion today.
    Why do almost all of your politicians publicly call upon God, when if our politicians publicly called upon God, they would be laughed at?

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    If something is true, surely it is true for everybody?
    Depends on how much they can see of it.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Why do almost all of your politicians publicly call upon God, when if our politicians publicly called upon God, they would be laughed at?
    Seriously? You honestly think they care or are holy, humble people? Politicians?

    You seem to have much to learn. Christianity is a very complex subject... and the people you speak of invoking God publicly are most likely fundamentalist loons who don't represent anything legitimate about the faith.

  10. #40
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Why do almost all of your politicians publicly call upon God, when if our politicians publicly called upon God, they would be laughed at?
    Victor, please.

    There is nothing genuinely religious about the politicians' words. "God bless America" is more like a meaningless catch phrase that only offends atheists, who for some reason want everyone and everything to follow their rules. What politicians say and what they mean are two different things.

    Even granted that the politicians are genuine in such rhetoric, since when does referencing God imply religion? A belief in God is not exclusive to one creed, or even to Christianity.

    I don't know how things work in Australia, but it is rather obvious that you aren't really up to snuff on understanding the history, culture, and politics of the US.

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