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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    There's absolutely nothing to balance. You're mentioning theology and theologists, while I'm refering to archaelogists and hence, real scientists (not biased bigots).

    The two fields have nothing in common. To be bluntly honest, mentioning the likes of Hengel, Bauckham or Boyd is simply ridiculous, it just shows you didn't understand the question Victor asked.

    You're just two centuries too late. After Kant, metaphysics and theology have become completely obsolete, or at least, they were expelled out of the rational world.

    Denial, denial...
    So theologists and historians of religion are biased bigots, eh? That's a sweeping, unfounded generalization.

    Are you aware of Georges Lemaître or John Polkinghorne

    Science and theology are not mutually exclusive.

    Clearly Kant, and everything after, in the vein of Kant, has not solved any problems, but merely brought on more questions. Science sees the the trees and not the forest. It cannot be any other way.

    This issue is deep, but starts there.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post

    Science and theology are not mutually exclusive.
    O yes, they are. And every other explaination is just plain demagogy, ignorance, or a lack of true epistemological knowledge.

    Or maybe it's something you don't want to hear, a possibility you don't want to consider?

    Rather than wasting your time with biased bigots that are almost unheard of outside the USA or the christian communities, have you ever heard of Hume, Spinoza, Husserl, Wittgenstein, Russel, Bachelard, Popper, Lakatos, Feyerabend, Kuhn, Koyré... ?

    Shall I continue the list?

    Modern epistemology is precisely the heiress of the teachings of Kant, and there are no contemporary epistemological thoughts outside the Kantian spirit.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    Science sees the the trees and not the forest.
    Empty catch phrase.

    Science doesn't "see" anything, unless you can prove your trees are falsifiable. Science for instance constructs abstract models of reality, and tries to determine which one is less false than the other.


    Anyway, we're far from the original debate.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #24
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    It's nice to read your replies but what is extraordinary in all this is that it is Israeli archaeologists who have found that the Exodus didn't' occur.

    Just think, they made this finding while employed by the Israeli government and while working in Israel. And as you know, a founding story of modern Israel is the Exodus.

    So to declare the Exodus didn't occur is extraordinary.

    And it is an enormous tribute to the integrity and courage of the Israeli archaeologists, just as it is an enormous tribute to intellectual freedom in the State of Israel.

  5. #25
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    And the Exodus is not just a founding story of Israel, it is also a founding story of the United States.

    For we are told, the Pilgrims fled persecution in England just as the Jews fled persecution in Egypt. And just as the Jews found their promised land in Israel so the Pilgrims found their promised land in America.

    And we all give thanks on Thanksgiving Day.

    What is most interesting is to compare the history of America with Australia.

    For Australia no such founding story.

    Why is this? America has the founding story of the Exodus but Australia doesn't?

    And the answer is very simple. America was founded by religion, while Australia was founded by the Enlightenment.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    O yes, they are. And every other explaination is just plain demagogy, ignorance, or a lack of true epistemological knowledge.

    Or maybe it's something you don't want to hear, a possibility you don't want to consider?

    Rather than wasting your time with biased bigots that are almost unheard of outside the USA or the christian communities, have you ever heard of Hume, Spinoza, Husserl, Wittgenstein, Russel, Popper, Lakatos, Feyerabend, Kuhn, Koyré...

    Shall I continue?
    Hah, many from the camp you are arguing for could always be called biased bigots, but, again, I do not think it is wise to generalize here. There are a multitude of shades of grey.

    You gave an impassioned response...no doubt driven by what would seem to point to your belief in materialism. That is the war being waged at the moment :believers v. materialists. Do not kid yourself to think it started with Kant, it has been going on ever since belief in worshiping something was around. Without belief in God there would be no atheism. Naturally, there will always be those who oppose and given their extensively reasoned arguments.

    I care not to argue on this point for I have concluded the argument for God is compelling after hearing both sides. So compelling, in fact, I have chosen to take a leap of faith and believe in God. When comparing what each side of these arguments have done for humanity in the way of progress, the answer gets interesting.


    Demagoguery? This could be accused of anyone trying to put forth their beliefs... which is all we really have here, beliefs... so leap one way or the other, but, ultimately, faith is the key word.

    In no way are the writings or people I listed representative of any sort of demagoguery. Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME!


    It seems that I keep having this God/religion discussion over and over again, but not one atheist has been able to convince me otherwise. Of course, you can try if you wish.


    The way the universe seems to be set up points to a Creator. So, if there is a Creator... you have supernatural and natural... Creator and Creation. That leads the way for discussion on everything else.


    I'm sorry if this response seems disjointed. I have only put down the thoughts that immediately came to me, but this argument is so deep and complex.

    John Templeton Foundation

    EDIT:

    Also, as I suspected, for the Jews it does not matter if Exodus did not happen.

    Thoughts from a Rabbi:

    Did the Exodus Really Happen? Rabbi David Wolpe on the Passover story - Beliefnet.com

  7. #27
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    Also, Jennifer made some very informative posts earlier, but I have not seen you reply to anything she said...

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    I have chosen to take a leap of faith and believe in God.
    In fact you take a further leap of faith and believe in America.

    So you have chosen a double trance - the trance of America which is anchored in the trance of religion. And one trance reinforces the other.

    So America is like an addiction - it is meta cognitive loop nestled within a cognitive loop. It is called, "The American Dream".

    So, the American Dream is very hard to wake up from, particularly if you are an American.

    And fortunately you are talking to members in independent countries who have never fallen asleep in the American Dream.

    So it is inevitable we will disturb your slumbers.

    And it is slowly becoming obvious you slumber in an intellectual slum.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    In fact you take a further leap of faith and believe in America.

    So you have chosen a double trance - the trance of America which is anchored in the trance of religion. And one trance reinforces the other.

    So America is like an addiction - it is meta cognitive loop nestled within a cognitive loop. It is called, "The American Dream".

    So, the American Dream is very hard to wake up from, particularly if you are an American.

    And fortunately you are talking to members in independent countries who have never fallen asleep in the American Dream.

    So it is inevitable we will disturb your slumbers.

    And it is slowly becoming obvious you slumber in an intellectual slum.
    You're telling me what I believe, and what I have choosen? Really? I never said anything about America or believing in the American Dream. I can tell you with confidence I have rallied against it, resisting a spoon fed reality.

    America may have been founded on religious principles (further inquiry proves this to be highly questionable anyway), but that has nothing to do with (or maybe should say, is of no importance) the economics that drive this country, and the entire world at this point. The teachings of Christ are in direct opposition to this "culture of death".

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyx View Post
    The teachings of Christ are in direct opposition to this "culture of death".
    Please! Jesus taught, "Take no thought for the morrow", and if we followed His teachings, we would all be dead. And of course that is what Jesus thought. He thought the world was coming to end in His lifetime or that of His followers. But after two thousand years, we know He was a little out.

    But still we are fascinated by the end of the world. Why, I have just seen a movie called 2012 all about the end of the world. And people in your part of the world keep rabbiting on about the Rapture at the end of the world.

    So two thousand years ago Jesus was fascinated by the end of the world, just as we are today.

    But really, people talk about the end of the world to inspire fear to motivate us to serve their interests.

    And fear is the great motivator.

    Why, it was Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli (1469-1527) who taught us is it is better for a Prince to be feared than loved.

    So we can expect a Prince to tell us about the end of the world.

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