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  1. #11
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    To Eck:
    Are you denying the existence of one or the other world? I did not fully understand the informations transfer part.
    duh.
    entropy within a system
    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Also, as part of the everything-is-a-mental-construct concept, are you denying the existence of the external world?
    What?
    No I meant that things are mental constructs, there's no fundamental difference between a chair and the ground it lays on, everything expanded from the basic patterns/fundamental forces equilibriums setted just after/at/during the big bang.
    Emergence is just an illusion as obviously one could 'guess' any particle etc from a complete model of To (so guess the emergence of fusion, the mendeleiev table, have a model of every possible history of the universe [not saying its actually feasible, just that its conceptually possible| etc.)

    I mean, even if you take dot like particles like electrons, the uncertainty/ wave function still make the delimitation sort of fuzzy for the macro-scale born human concept of object
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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  2. #12

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    I understand that information and entropy are essentially two sides of the same coin.

    I also understand that all things, at base, are the result of th laws of nature, even emergent properties of systems.

    But just based on those things there are a myriad of possible distinctions possible between the internal and external world. I would like to know (more clearly) why you say there is no distinction.

    In short, can you elaborate why the points you made lead to there being no distinction. Because I believe many people believe the same points you made but have a different demarcation between internal and external worlds.

    Are you saying that the internal world is all of the universe, and so is the external world? If not, it seems like, there ought to be some difference between the two (given your points in your first post in this thread).

    Maybe I am missing something you are saying. But I would like to understand your viewpoint.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    To the subject there is no difference between the inner world and the outer world except when speaking in specific arenas where it seems to stand for something similar to reception and broadcast. To the object however the difference is stark, I imagine.
    Could you elaborate a little more on what you mean by "the subject" and "the object?"

    There are many possible interpretations of those words.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    The internal world is a person's subjective sense of self and all of the thoughts that it generates. The external world is everything else.
    This seems very close (possibly identical) to my own view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    We don't. We can only make assumptions, and not all of us make the same ones. Many philosophical debates actually deal with the boundaries of what is expressible.
    Ah. Ok then. Can you give some examples of possibly places to make the boundaries?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #14
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I understand that information and entropy are essentially two sides of the same coin.

    I also understand that all things, at base, are the result of th laws of nature, even emergent properties of systems.

    But just based on those things there are a myriad of possible distinctions possible between the internal and external world. I would like to know (more clearly) why you say there is no distinction.
    What you're saying makes no sense. Objects and limitations are just mental tools we use due to our evolutionary history.

    edit: basically you can only consider closed/self contained systems. And I'm sorry but a human body for example isn't a self contained system, be it only because homostasis isn't possible without external energy input.

    So sure, u could say the universe is a thing, but the concept is meaningless since there's nobody to observe the universe in its entirety and as I said, objects are a mental tool. Also quantum physics sort of tells us that without an 'observer' the universe is just a 'probability wave' and so again, not a clearly definable object(i don't buy the CONSCIOUS observer argument, it's sort of ridiculously ethnocentered)
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #15
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Imo. The internal world is everything involving myself. Things I can control, influences in my life, my personal inner thoughts, my actions, and reactions. They include the things I influence, my morality, and my philosophy. Imo, the internal and external world changes. For example: I considered my apartment part of my internal world, but now that I no longer live in it, it is not.

    The external world is that which I cannot touch. The things outside of my control, the people I am a stranger to, information and knowledge I am not aware of or never bother to/fail to understand and grasp, the ideas and beliefs of those around me, and so on.
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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    What you're saying makes no sense. Objects and limitations are just mental tools we use due to our evolutionary history.

    edit: basically you can only consider closed/self contained systems. And I'm sorry but a human body for example isn't a self contained system, be it only because homostasis isn't possible without external energy input.

    So sure, u could say the universe is a thing, but the concept is meaningless since there's nobody to observe the universe in its entirety and as I said, objects are a mental tool. Also quantum physics sort of tells us that without an 'observer' the universe is just a 'probability wave' and so again, not a clearly definable object(i don't buy the CONSCIOUS observer argument, it's sort of ridiculously ethnocentered)
    Again, I basically agree with you on the science. But again there are lots of interpretations I could draw for what is the internal world vs. the external world.

    I am rather slow today. Can you put it in the form:

    The/My internal world is <insert what you think the internal world is here>.
    The/My external world is <insert what you think the external world is here>.

    Then explain why they are the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Imo. The internal world is everything involving myself. Things I can control, influences in my life, my personal inner thoughts, my actions, and reactions. They include the things I influence, my morality, and my philosophy. Imo, the internal and external world changes. For example: I considered my apartment part of my internal world, but now that I no longer live in it, it is not.

    The external world is that which I cannot touch. The things outside of my control, the people I am a stranger to, information and knowledge I am not aware of or never bother to/fail to understand and grasp, the ideas and beliefs of those around me, and so on.
    Ah. Yes. I beleive Covey calls what you say is the internal world as your "circle of influence."

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #17
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    What I said is that one cannot make the distinction in the first place, so I don't need to define internal and external as one implies the other.

    And I explained it already.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #18

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    Ah. OK. I was under the impression that you were saying that "they are both the same"...which is different from "one cannot make the distinction."

    Thanks for your patience.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #19
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  10. #20
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Could you elaborate a little more on what you mean by "the subject" and "the object?"

    There are many possible interpretations of those words.
    In many situations I guess the subject would be the observer and the object would be the observed but those titles rely on vision and hence I was going for something more neutral. Admittedly neutral also tends to go hand in hand with vague.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

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