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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No worries. You're right that I've made a number of obnoxious comments about religious people. I think you have a much better grasp of these ideas than about 99% of religious people, and I have learned a little bit more about it as a result of reading some of your posts.

    I no longer reject religion wholesale, and indeed I believe I've described you personally in past posts as "an intelligent Christian." Five years ago I wouldn't have admitted such a thing existed.

    I still don't believe it, necessarily, but I can at least see why people do, and you're partially responsible for that. I do, by the way, see a lot of value in reading scripture for its metaphorical wisdom (not to mention its profound and near-ubiquitous influence on global culture), even if I reject the idea that it points to any literal or definite truth.

    Seriously though, the people behind today's ID movement are ardently against evolution/Darwin and insist upon a literalist interpretation of scripture. I suppose I assumed you were placing support behind this movement based on use of the phrase "Intelligent Design."

    Does that make sense?
    Yes it does; it sounds alot like myself during the later developments of my atheism. In fact towards the end I made open defenses of religion, if not exactly the belief in God itself. In fact here's another atheist who does the same thing:
    An Atheist Defends Religion - by Bruce Sheiman

    Just a few days ago I was glancing through this book. Might be of interest to you.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yes, I am serious. The title suggests that you find some inconsistency between the two philosophies, not that you accept and embrace both, and the author you quoted goes on to recount the history of the Teleological argument in support of his belief in ID.

    And of course you ended your post with a Peguy-patented snide comment about how stupid modern atheists and atheism are. Surely you don't think your post created the impression that you support evolution?
    He was being snide? You came into the thread and mocked it. But he's calling you stupid? What are you talking about? You started the mud slinging.

    I also believe in evolution, but there is an initial creative force behind it. I do not think that religion and science are mutually exclusive. There are plenty of intelligent, educated people who believe this. Your whole comment about gravity angels invited Peguy's response.

  3. #63
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes it does; it sounds alot like myself during the later developments of my atheism. In fact towards the end I made open defenses of religion, if not exactly the belief in God itself. In fact here's another atheist who does the same thing:
    An Atheist Defends Religion - by Bruce Sheiman

    Just a few days ago I was glancing through this book. Might be of interest to you.
    Thank you. This thread might not be the place for it, but would you mind offering some more insight as to what led you to reject atheism and embrace Christianity, and more specifically Catholicism?

    I must confess I was unaware that you had previously been an atheist, and I'm very interested in hearing the tale of your transformation from someone who understands faith in a realitic and historical context.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Thank you. This thread might not be the place for it, but would you mind offering some more insight as to what led you to reject atheism and embrace Christianity, and more specifically Catholicism?

    I must confess I was unaware that you had previously been an atheist, and I'm very interested in hearing the tale of your transformation from someone who understands faith in a realitic and historical context.
    Reading CS Lewis is good for that, too. He was a very intelligent, educated atheist who became a Christian.

    Many Catholics are very well educated, I would even venture to say that their leaders are more educated than the general population.

  5. #65
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    He was being snide? You came into the thread and mocked it. But he's calling you stupid? What are you talking about? You started the mud slinging.

    I also believe in evolution, but there is an initial creative force behind it. I do not think that religion and science are mutually exclusive. There are plenty of intelligent, educated people who believe this. Your whole comment about gravity angels invited Peguy's response.
    We've already worked this out between us; your indignant moralizing isn't necessary here. Thanks.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Reading CS Lewis is good for that, too. He was a very intelligent, educated atheist who became a Christian.

    Many Catholics are very well educated, I would even venture to say that their leaders are more educated than the general population.
    Well yes many singificant living intellectuals today are Catholic or Christian in general. Alasdair MacIntyre is a good example, so is Charles Taylor. There's also René Girard, whose work is considered standard within anthropology and other social sciences. And there's plenty others, whose names escape me at the exact moment.

  7. #67
    Junior Member DigitalStreetfighter's Avatar
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    I know the thread is Darwinism vs. Intelligent Design but it might as well be Evidence vs Faith. At least for me it is.

    I would much prefer if the education system excluded faith from scientific subjects. This would help to ensure today’s young minds are educated based on scientific evidence. I’ve seen science teachers imposing their own religious beliefs and teaching their students things such as the planet is only 10,000 years old. Effectively abusing their position to brainwash kids.

    Fine if topics such as Intelligent Design come up, but it should be made very clear to students that without any scientific evidence it’s just theory.


    Most likely when you die that is it...nothing more. People decay and rot. Why are some people so afraid of this possibility? Probably the same reason they feel they have to somehow explain how everything came to be in the absence of evidence.



    Former Christian.

    EDIT: This isn't a rant at anyone. I guess mainly a rant at faith rearing its head in science lessons.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So in the end, you still can't prove that science and religion are opposed to each other based on the Galileo affair.
    Initially Galilei was indeed allowed to tell the world about his observations that the earth revolved around the sun, and yes he was funded by the church. He was however convicted "for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the sun is the center of the world." Basically he was allowed to print and distribute his observations, but not the conclusion that the earth actually revolved around the sun, because that would be contrary to scripture. THAT is the dispute Galilei had with the church.

    To me that sounds pretty much like a dispute between science and the church. The fact that later on the church accepts previously banned theories does not show that they appreciate scientific method, but that they occasionally realise that their existing dogmas are out of place and a majority of that church goers don't believe it any more anyway, and that there is no particular use in sticking to believing something isn't true.

    I'll give you another example. Not scientific this time, but about the nature of organized religion.

    Indulgences. Common the middle ages. Martin Luther came along with his 95 theses. People liked the idea of not having to pay money to get into heaven. Catholic church loses followers. Pope Pius V bans them. I know you'll say that: "Well, people could get into heaven by not sinning. And now they can by repenting, so it's a good thing they got banned, what does that have to do with the church sticking to dogma's?" The point is, the church doesn't change until it suits their own purpose. Whereas a (good) scientist would say: "Hey, this is an odd observation. Let's try to explain it now and come up with a good theory." And then subsequently accepts it if another scientists says: "But wait, now these other observations are unexplained so the initial theory must either be wrong, or changed to encompass this."

    My examples may be about the catholic church here, but most organised religions are doing it. The catholic church is just the easiest to notice it in because there is a strict hierarchy that makes the official doctrine, whereas in Islam for instance, there is no 'one boss', and therefore more room for interpretation by individual Imams, Mullahs, and Ayatollahs.
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  9. #69
    Senior Member Shimmy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well yes many singificant living intellectuals today are Catholic or Christian in general. Alasdair MacIntyre is a good example, so is Charles Taylor. There's also René Girard, whose work is considered standard within anthropology and other social sciences. And there's plenty others, whose names escape me at the exact moment.
    Science and faith are not mutually exclusive. But I reckon if any of these scientists would promote the use of condoms as a mean to stop the spread of aids in Africa, they'd have to face the wrath of the pope (luckily they're not likely to be convicted, or even excommunicated over it any more).

    As for the actual subject Darwinism vs. Intelligent Design. Show me gods blueprints for the animals, plants and humans and I'd put Intelligent Design in my textbooks as scientific theory. (Or show me anything else that indicates ID is not a figment of religious' imagination.)
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  10. #70
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    To me that sounds pretty much like a dispute between science and the church.
    Yeah it's pretty clear cut, right? However, Christian apologetics is a fine art.

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