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  1. #31
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    My fault.

    I must've poorly framed the question.

  2. #32
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Philosophy is basically an attempt to move beyond mere opinion to a more generalized truth. And philosophy or theory is the key to interpreting the facts concerning the origins of life(or anything for that matter). Theory is the form, while facts are the content so to speak. It actually maybe of interest to know that in terms of cosmological theories, there's not much new under the Sun really. For example, the Big Bang can be said to be an example of Stoic metaphysics.
    So that makes "Intelligent Design" less a matter of right or wrong and more a matter of it makes no sense in the context of how we are teaching.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    So that makes "Intelligent Design" less a matter of right or wrong and more a matter of it makes no sense in the context of how we are teaching.
    No that's not what I'm saying.

  4. #34
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I agree with you Peguy. I don't think Science and Religion are in binary opposition. In most cases they can co-exist perfectly well. Didn't even Pope John Paul II accept the theory of evolution and that he can see the 6 days of creation as being symbolic rather than literal.

    I think sensible, free-thinking, knowledge-seeking individuals will accept the theory of evolution. If they want to negotiate that concept in such a way that it encapsulates the theory of intelligent design, go for it. I think scientists have little business try to tear that choice away from people. There are many arguments against intelligent design but there is no way we can unassailably refute it. Even scientists must conceed that there is a great deal about the universe that we don't fully understand. People just choose to fill in the gaps in their own individual ways.

    I don't, however, think creationism has any place in the classroom. It is up to an individual's church/religious body to deal with the issue.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I agree with you Peguy. I don't think Science and Religion are in binary opposition. In most cases they can co-exist perfectly well. Didn't even Pope John Paul II accept the theory of evolution and that he can see the 6 days of creation as being symbolic rather than literal.
    Yes that's true. In fact I like how John Paul II summarised the proper relationship between science and religion:

    "Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes."

    The issue is not science or religion, but science AND religion together.

  6. #36
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    No that's not what I'm saying.
    Peguy, sometimes you use big words and complex sentences and I don't understand them.

    Could you try explaining again?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Peguy, sometimes you use big words and complex sentences and I don't understand them.

    Could you try explaining again?
    The facts point to evolution. Whether or not this disproves God's existence is a matter of theoretical debate. Theory explains how the facts fit into the overall picture. Is this better?

  8. #38
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The facts point to evolution. Whether or not this disproves God's existence is a matter of theoretical debate. Theory explains how the facts fit into the overall picture. Is this better?
    Yes, much better, thanks.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #39
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes that's true. In fact I like how John Paul II summarized the proper relationship between science and religion:

    "Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes."

    The issue is not science or religion, but science AND religion together.
    This open-mindedness is one of the reasons I rather liked John Paul II as Pope (I'm not Catholic, or religious in general). I'm not sure that I agree that religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes, because proper science isn't a matter of absolutes (basic mathematics possibly excepted). Now perhaps religion can (and does) provide a mechanism to protect from false absolutes in that it helps people avoid seeing things in black-and-white in a more general way (although poorly implemented religions do just the opposite).
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    +1 Thank you. No I don't reject evolution, what I do reject are atheistic interpretations of evolution as some kind of evidence against God's existence and for a cosmos governed by chaos.
    The cosmos is a place of order and chaos. You can't ignore either as a scientist or a religious person. Looking at quantum mechanics for example, our ability to measure the universe on that level might limit us to seeing randomness: we make a measurement and have an unpredictable collapse into our reality. But the underlying system is a universe of entangled particles and interdependence. Evolution is changes in a biological system. It can depend on chemistry of surroundings, limitation of certain nutrients causing certain mutations, etc. It is all interconnected. Anyone who says science proves the cosmos is chaotic hence God does not exist, hasn't looked much at science or religion.

    I think a lot of your points on the science religion debate are good. There are conflicts seen where there are none. I've never been a fan of Intelligent Design though. I always got the feeling someone came up with a half baked theory that they had only really thought through the marketing potential of. Maybe the equivalent of the crazy scientists who think they have invented hyperdrives.
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