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  1. #51
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    You're missing the point.

    All the methodology you cited makes us of experiment and testable hypothesis. Gravity is independently understood as a falsifiable physical force.

    Religion isn't. There's no scientific method. It's an alogical construct that depends on force of personality and subjective interpretation of historical text.

    It's simple.
    Is that not the result and in this case an independent result from any of the usual techniques applied to theories?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #52
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Is that not the result and in this case an independent result from any of the usual techniques applied to theories?
    No.

    Xander, you know better.

    Science uses the scientific method of analysis to gather data and make educated forecasting on how said material physically interacts with our world.

    Science can be measured. It can be observed by an independent source.

    Pulled from Wikipedia:

    Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]

    Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.

    Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process be objective to reduce biased interpretations of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.


    ---

    I've bolded the science-specific enquiry. Note: Religion does not rely on any of these preconditions for an ideology to cultivate and flourish. This isn't to presume that religious methodology is at an inherent disadvantage to scientific; rather, that each requires respective frameworks to function.

  3. #53
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    No.

    Xander, you know better.

    Science uses the scientific method of analysis to gather data and make educated forecasting on how said material physically interacts with our world.

    Science can be measured. It can be observed by an independent source.

    Pulled from Wikipedia:

    Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[2]

    Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, identifiable features distinguish scientific inquiry from other methodologies of knowledge. Scientific researchers propose hypotheses as explanations of phenomena, and design experimental studies to test these hypotheses. These steps must be repeatable in order to dependably predict any future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry may bind many hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn may help form new hypotheses or place groups of hypotheses into context.

    Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process be objective to reduce biased interpretations of the results. Another basic expectation is to document, archive and share all data and methodology so they are available for careful scrutiny by other scientists, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempting to reproduce them. This practice, called full disclosure, also allows statistical measures of the reliability of these data to be established.


    ---

    I've bolded the science-specific enquiry. Note: Religion does not rely on any of these preconditions for an ideology to cultivate and flourish. This isn't to presume that religious methodology is at an inherent disadvantage to scientific; rather, that each requires respective frameworks to function.
    To be scientific something must comply with the things we associate with science, to be religious it must comply with the things we associate with religion.

    If you remove the preconception from these two things their architecture is remarkably similar.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #54
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    To be scientific something must comply with the things we associate with science, to be religious it must comply with the things we associate with religion.

    If you remove the preconception from these two things their architecture is remarkably similar.
    And yet, in practice, worlds apart.

    Xander, anything is remarkably similar if you remove the preconditions that superficially divide them.

    A dog and a dolphin. If you divorce the obvious physical differences, they both depend on aerobic metabolism to survive. They both sexually reproduce. They both have social hierarchies. They have complex emotional response to loss.

    Similarity in architecture doesn't always translate. Without precision, accuracy is lost.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Actually, I'd like to note that gravity is practically religious belief.
    Acknowledging that a force is not well understood does not in turn make it magic or faith. It means we don't know.

  6. #56
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    And yet, in practice, worlds apart.

    Xander, anything is remarkably similar if you remove the preconditions that superficially divide them.

    A dog and a dolphin. If you divorce the obvious physical differences, they both depend on aerobic metabolism to survive. They both sexually reproduce. They both have social hierarchies. They have complex emotional response to loss.

    Similarity in architecture doesn't always translate. Without precision, accuracy is lost.
    Now hang on, without context all loses meaning too. You can't just decide that dolphins and dogs don't share anything in common because one's a dog and the other is a dolphin.

    Similarity in architecture means they share characteristics. Ergo, to a certain extent they are similar.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #57
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Similarity in architecture means they share characteristics. Ergo, to a certain extent they are similar.
    That was my point.

    Haha. I think you're stretching, Xander.

  8. #58
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    That was my point.

    Haha. I think you're stretching, Xander.
    Similarity means you CAN apply the presumptions of one to the other to test hypothesis. As such religion is no more immune to the enquiring mind than any other field. It just deserves the respect due to something that people care about, that's totally different to immunity to analysis.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #59
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Similarity means you CAN apply the presumptions of one to the other to test hypothesis.
    Well, by that definition they are not similar, then.

    Religion does not use the scientific method of analysis to justify faith. Religion does not conduct experiments to offer theory. Religion is not independently verifiable. It does not strive for objectivity in perspective, nor detachment in analysis.

    They do not use the same methodology. Period.

    Just to reiterate:

    - Confirm/disprove the existence of God/s (the fundamental religious question) using the scientific method of analysis, Xander.

    - Confirm which religion is closest to objective truth.

    - Using testable religious variables, offer educated speculation on what happens in the afterlife. Please show clinical precedent.


    Sound foolish? It's because the methodologies that justify religion and science don't wash. Not now, not ever.

    It's just not happening.

  10. #60
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The only thing that scared me was my desire to take an axe to someone's head, in this thread.
    I have that same desire, are you Catholic too??
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


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