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  1. #31
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    In English we make the distinction between the natural and the supernatural.

    And it is becoming plain that you do not make this distinction.

    And as we perceive by making distinctions, it is not surprising you do not see.
    It's ironic that those that actually work with the stuff you refer to as 'supernatural', those that are interested in this stuff and do study it, don't consider it supernatural at all. Makes you wonder who's right..

    I find that most things that were considered 'supernatural' in the day, have become part of science these days and are very natural. Hypnosis is an example. Bacteria is another. As science progresses, they discover that many of the things considered supernatural and magical are in fact natural processes, things we just hadn't figured out yet.

    And we'd be arrogant to think that we've discovered everything by now. So yeah..feel free to keep calling those things supernatural. Just know that others consider them very much natural.
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  2. #32
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    All of Ancient Greece worshipped Zeus and Poseidon. But today no one worships Zeus or Poseidon.

    In the same way that people worship the Trinity today but in the future no one will worship the Trinity.

    And it is quite likely they will be worshipping some other god.
    :rolli: Get your facts straight or stop making statements about topics you clearly need more schooling on. Hellenic Pagans are still present in this day and age.
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  3. #33
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    :rolli: Get your facts straight or stop making statements about topics you clearly need more schooling on. Hellenic Pagans are still present in this day and age.
    You simply have to read the history of the Romantic Movement and the New Age to discover where present day pagans came from.

  4. #34
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    You simply have to read the history of the Romantic Movement and the New Age to discover where present day pagans came from.
    The origin of the movement doesn't discount the fact that these people still worship those Gods.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  5. #35
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    The origin of the movement doesn't discount the fact that these people still worship those Gods.
    I don't think we are on the same page.

  6. #36
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I don't think we are on the same page.
    That was clear to me a while ago already.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  7. #37
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    Am I the only one scared by this thread?
    The only thing that scared me was my desire to take an axe to someone's head, in this thread.

  8. #38
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, I find it interesting how some seem to be struggling with the act of identifying themselves positively on their own terms without directly pitting themselves against another POV expressed in the thread. I didn't think it would be so hard.
    Errm isn't it a case of "I'm Spartacus" kind of combined with societies which only recognise accredited sources without ever pausing to question who gives credit to the accreditor and so forth?

    I mean someone stating that they believe the world is made with cheese is treated as someone of dubious intellect but someone who belongs to a whole group of people who think the world is made with cheese is either afforded more leeway or is treated as a fanatic and feared.

    Association with a recognisable name, something to affiliate to is desirable and indeed practical... it's just not that easy when you think they're all equally full of rose food and rose petals...
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Do you?

    Tell me why you believe. Or, conversely, why you choose to disbelieve.

    I'm not starting this thread to fertilize a battleground. Spirituality is an intimate experience. It is not concerned with empirical logic beyond what works for the individual. To that end, I'm not looking to debate.

    Only to share.

    So, tell me: What do you believe?


    Edit: Just to be clear, the intent of this thread is to allow folks to weigh in on their personal spiritual ideology; it's not an opportunity for religious debate. There are countless other threads available in which that is a possibility.
    You can have personal tastes that doesn't interfere with the personal preferences of others. Whether you prefer beef over pork, indie over heavy, green over blue, introversion over extraversion etc., personal preferences can coexist without contradiction as to what is real and not.

    But it doesn't make sense to call a religious belief "personal" since it is by definition cosmological and universal in scope. To believe in any religious worldview is to believe it exists outside yourself, that it is true for everybody, no matter what they may believe themselves.

    To spell it out: You don't believe you alone will get reincarnated while other's won't. You can't believe that some astrological 'star-influence' only hit you at birth, but failed to influence the un-believers. And the moral one: Do any Catholics think that only Catholic gays will spend their afterlife tortured in hell while homosexual Zeus-believers will be spared? Etc. ad nauseam.

    Thus every religious belief will per definition claim validity for everybody - explicitly or implicitly dependent on what they can best get away in the context.

    Claims of religious faith are 'strong claims' because either they are valid independant of personal taste or they are invalid. So are claims of gravitational laws. While there is nothing wrong with strong claims as such, they will of course need to be backed by equally strong reasons to be granted status as anything more than personal fantasies.

    Religious attempts at defining our shared world must be challenged, it must be held responsible for internal inconsistencies and external counterevidence. Because they are invariably speaking about the life and the world of everybody, religious ideas can't be allowed to hide behind the protection of 'personal taste', that we provide personal sexual or gastronomic preferences. Actually this protection express the strong claim that who people screw and what eat is their personal judgment alone, provided the don't hinder others' ability to judge these matters for themselves. Which religious morality invariably does.

    I believe gravitational laws are true about the world. Not because of a personal taste, but because of strong arguments, strong evidence and strong theoretical consistency. This opens the peossibility that an even stronger theory might come up in the future, which would force me to change belief. To say "Personally I believe in gravitation" would be just as non-sensical as saying "I believe in a God that only exists for me until I change my taste tomorrow."

    To accept double standards when socially forming ideas on what our world is all about would be to give in to powerplays and injustice. Religious belief should not be given a free ride, but be subjected to critique and rejection, just like every other strong and influential claim about impersonal, shared conditions - be it scientific, political, ethical, historical, technical, psychological etc.


    This 'personal faith' stuff is just an excuse for religions not to face the music of criticism and responsibility.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    You can have personal tastes that doesn't interfere with the personal preferences of others. Whether you prefer beef over pork, indie over heavy, green over blue, introversion over extraversion etc., personal preferences can coexist without contradiction as to what is real and not. ...

    <long post>

    ...This 'personal faith' stuff is just an excuse for religions not to face the music of criticism and responsibility.
    Very well put Heart&Brain.

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