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  1. #91
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    ...People believe just because they believe. It's completely circular, and crafted to make the followers accept being blind and deaf to the real world. And they call that insensivity a 'virtue' even. It's narcisistic. With religion everything, every atrocity, ignorance and injustice, can be permitted and justified. And has been during the ages.
    That might be true, but it doesn't seem even nearly close to the entirety of religious practice. It's much more complicated than that.

    For one, maybe it's obvious to you that the reasoning is circular, but it's not clear at all to many of the religiously minded, especially because they just do not organize their thoughts in the same pattern you might, or might not be intuitive. I assure you that they believe they are being entirely reasonable and drawing conclusions in rational ways... and it's "rational enough" that it is very hard to dislodge the thinking that goes on. God knows, I've tried to engage with people I love, and it's just infuriating... partly because they are not TRYING to be obtuse or cruel.

    And while religion can be responsible for atrocities, there are many things that can driven human beings to commit atrocities, and there's also usually some level of restraint inherent in the religiously minded... the average person might misapply truth (in your or my opinion) to a certain degree, but at some point it becomes obvious to them that things "aren't right" and then they start to check and balance themselves. They seem to usually have good intentions and use their faith framework to support, justify, and implement those good intentions.

    And finally, in a rather tangential viewpoint, I'm sort of feeling like you grabbed a word out of Night's post to run away on your own agenda here... because you happen to have particular issues with religious people, and so you changed the topic so you could vent about it.

    I guess it doesn't matter, the discussion can go wherever people want it to; I'm just noting it for the record.

    I meant 'believe' in the simple meaning 'act as if it's true until further notice'. I think the religious use of the word 'belief' is highly manipulative and designed to dodge the issue once again. Normally you hold ideas to be true or good or sublime for some reasons beyond that you hold them.
    I think you credit too much conscious thought to human beings, and insinuate too much negativity about their intent.

    But religious people believe only because they believe. Complete selfabsorbtion and disregard for the autonomy and feedback from the inner or outer world. Organised insensivity and disrespect for life, the universe and everything.
    Yeah.
    Sure.
    Whatever.
    You're not extreme in the least, or exaggerating to the extreme. *eyeroll*

    Honestly, I'm worried about people who think like you do as much as I worry about 'religious people.' We've all got our flaws. It makes it hard to have any sort of meaningful dialogue.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #92
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    I Corinthians 1:18-29 ---
    I wondered why you were so nice to me but refused to join me in a cavalry charge.

    You said it was because you were a maverick, but it seems it was because you are a Christian maverick.

    So you were displaying Christian charity towards me; and exercising your Protestant individuality by refusing to join all of us on a gallop.

    Perfect.

  3. #93
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I wondered why you were so nice to me but refused to join me in a cavalry charge.

    You said it was because you were a maverick, but it seems it was because you are a Christian maverick.

    So you were displaying Christian charity towards me; and exercising your Protestant individuality by refusing to join all of us on a gallop.

    Perfect.

    I don't consider myself a Christian, but yeah--I'm leaning towards it.

    And like I told you before, I didn't join your calvary charge because I'm an independent agent.

    I rarely join any group or cause--even if its a good one.

    And I'm nice to you because I like you.

    It's not "Christian charity".
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  4. #94
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Because the other questions have verifiable answers.

    ...

    Both ways of answering are valid. As there are different methodologies for obtaining "truth", equating a belief in gravity with a belief in god/s is erroneous.

    Faith and reason are entirely separate entities.
    Yet leaps of faith or intuition are commonplace in theoretical science. Lots of scientists have a belief in something quite before they get to use reason at all. It took Newton years to explain something, using mathematics, which he believed to be true.

    I don't like approaching these subjects with a predefined model based on some arbitrary dichotomy. Science VS religion just isn't the point at all for me.

    You could say it takes faith to assimilate "truths" discovered by science during the centuries, when learning about it at school. And we are indoctrinated as well. Science isn't devoid of faith and religion isn't devoid of reason.


    The way I see it, most people dwell on these subjects in all the wrong ways. The aim of knowledge for me is forming a PERSONAL philosophy (not belief, nor method; or both depending how you look at it) of life which constantly EVOLVES and isn't arrogant or close-minded for the sake of it. A philosophy of life should be about living a better life. People get too hung up on finding the truth without thinking about what that should be about.

  5. #95
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobby View Post
    honestly, i think this whole god thing is just one big exercise in confusion. i was raised in a non religious environment, where god was only very rarely talked about, and only in a matter of fact way, and so far i have done just fine without him. finding out about the prevalence of religiosity in other parts of the world in my teenage years i was stunned. how could so many people devote so much time to something no one has ever seen or been able to produce any evidence of? the only explanation i can think of is tradition and group loyalty/pressure. there is no way so many people would be convinced about these things if it weren't for the fact that most people in their vicinity already were.

    heres a question for the religious: why do you believe in the god you believe in rather than some other god(s)? why not the norse gods, or those of the ancient greeks?

    and for those with a more diffuse, deist sort of god: why bother? if your god doesn't interfere in life or you can't define him, what difference does his existence make to you?

    but if all your god is is a blanket for comfort, then by all means go ahead. i dont understand the need for comfort.

    sorry if i come off as a jerk
    Good questions, I generally try to pose these myself =3

    That being said, the norse gods and greeks/roman ones are, these days, viewed as myth rather than religion. Likely because they had very specific details about them, and it assumed rather heavily that they had regular dealings with mortals. If yeu can't find anyone who's personally met them, it has a strong argument against, if that's supposedly the case.

    The whole "why christianity? Why not buddism? Or hinduism? Or islam?" thing is pretty much... well... yeu go with whot yeu're raised with and the culture of the area. Cultural values tend to be ingrained into people's heads for a long time, and religion is bent over time to match those values. Honestly, Christianity is very far removed from western values, but people ignore most of the scriptures, and follow only whot they want to hear to make it fit.

    Same elsewhere, other countries have a very strong belief in other religions, why? Because it's a different culture, and they've adapted other religions to fit into their little niche of the world.

    There was an interesting comedian someone showed me awhile ago that was pretty good on describing the message. I have the file on another drive but I listened to it enough this should be pretty close of a quote =3

    "Well, I was 'born christian', well... 'I was born and then told about ONE religion so I picked it... and I wouldn't've done, if as a child, I would've heard just a little about hinduism. C'mon man... BLUE MONKIES!? blue monkeys and a guy with an elephant for a head? OH YEAH!!!" -Glenn Wool"

    Fortunately, checking for verification on that quote, I found the youtube video of it ^^

    Warning: lots of swearing, and potentially offensive stuff, but quite amusing =3

    Odd it's not linking the video into the page... oh well here then.

    YouTube - Mintys Comedian Of The Month April 2007 - Glen Wool

    As for the "if god doesn't interfere with yeur lives, why bother with him?" well... people like to think he does. Even if they have no proof. There's people I've seen and met that anything that happens that's good, they automatically praise the lord for it, as if it's manually controlled, every single good thing that happens in their life is a direct move on god's chessboard, whereas everything that's bad that happens is the work of satan.

    Since when is satan supposed to be more powerful than god? O.o; Something doesn't really add up there >.>;;

    But yeah, I think most people just are scared. Scared of death (afterlife), scared of having no innate 'purpose' (god made us for a purpose), or just scared of having to make decisions about things on their own (morality). Being able to go "god made me do it!" just seems to work better than "I was an asshole, sorry". I'm not sure why but it's more culturally acceptable for the first. Oh well.

    That being said, there is some evidence of a godlike being, but not enough to really prove anything. As such, I don't really get the fanatical views myself. The idea of "there might be something there, I want to learn more about that" is good though. I consider that to be a pretty healthy perspective on things =3

    Blind faith is never good. Actually, I'm sure there's a case where it is, but I don't know which that is. I suppose I'm blindly faithful in the belief that there's always an exception to every rule then XD

    Actually not really, I've seen too many consistent cases of such, so it's based on evidence, and therefore can't be blind faith. Oh well.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Good questions, I generally try to pose these myself =3

    That being said, the norse gods and greeks/roman ones are, these days, viewed as myth rather than religion. Likely because they had very specific details about them, and it assumed rather heavily that they had regular dealings with mortals. If yeu can't find anyone who's personally met them, it has a strong argument against, if that's supposedly the case.
    it seems more likely to me that the reason they're considered myths is that very few people nowadays believe in them. what made people give them up in the first place, i don't rightly know, but i'd guess they were both out-competed by the, at the time rather new, abrahamic religions, for whatever reason.

    in any case, the vikings and the old greeks believed in their respective gods as fervently as any religious person you can find today believes in his, i'm sure. and if the vikings and the greeks were fine with never personally meeting their gods, why wouldn't people today?

    The whole "why christianity? Why not buddism? Or hinduism? Or islam?" thing is pretty much... well... yeu go with whot yeu're raised with and the culture of the area. Cultural values tend to be ingrained into people's heads for a long time, and religion is bent over time to match those values. Honestly, Christianity is very far removed from western values, but people ignore most of the scriptures, and follow only whot they want to hear to make it fit.

    Same elsewhere, other countries have a very strong belief in other religions, why? Because it's a different culture, and they've adapted other religions to fit into their little niche of the world.
    but this isn't really a point in religion's favor, is it? if which god is the right god depends on where you're born, it sort of questions the validity of all of them.

    As for the "if god doesn't interfere with yeur lives, why bother with him?" well... people like to think he does. Even if they have no proof. There's people I've seen and met that anything that happens that's good, they automatically praise the lord for it, as if it's manually controlled, every single good thing that happens in their life is a direct move on god's chessboard, whereas everything that's bad that happens is the work of satan.
    that question was for those who have already acknowledged that their god doesn't interfere in their lives. if they have made that acknowledgment yet still believe that he does interfere then i think they're being dishonest.

    But yeah, I think most people just are scared. Scared of death (afterlife), scared of having no innate 'purpose' (god made us for a purpose), or just scared of having to make decisions about things on their own (morality). Being able to go "god made me do it!" just seems to work better than "I was an asshole, sorry". I'm not sure why but it's more culturally acceptable for the first. Oh well.
    if that's the case then i must say i really don't understand that fear.

    That being said, there is some evidence of a godlike being, but not enough to really prove anything.
    would you like to share that evidence?

    The idea of "there might be something there, I want to learn more about that" is good though. I consider that to be a pretty healthy perspective on things =3
    sure, but how do you go about learning about it when it leaves no physical trace for us to examine? and when you say 'learn more' does that mean you already know something about it? i'd be interested to hear about that.

    Blind faith is never good. Actually, I'm sure there's a case where it is, but I don't know which that is. I suppose I'm blindly faithful in the belief that there's always an exception to every rule then XD
    i don't understand the difference between blind faith and regular faith. help?


    the simple fact that there are a great number of different religions ought to make anyone skeptic. if they contradict each other, which most of them do, one has to conclude that humans have a tendency to invent false religions. and that being the case, isn't it more probably that the last one is also false?

  7. #97
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Yet leaps of faith or intuition are commonplace in theoretical science. Lots of scientists have a belief in something quite before they get to use reason at all. It took Newton years to explain something, using mathematics, which he believed to be true.

    I don't like approaching these subjects with a predefined model based on some arbitrary dichotomy. Science VS religion just isn't the point at all for me.

    You could say it takes faith to assimilate "truths" discovered by science during the centuries, when learning about it at school. And we are indoctrinated as well. Science isn't devoid of faith and religion isn't devoid of reason.


    The way I see it, most people dwell on these subjects in all the wrong ways. The aim of knowledge for me is forming a PERSONAL philosophy (not belief, nor method; or both depending how you look at it) of life which constantly EVOLVES and isn't arrogant or close-minded for the sake of it. A philosophy of life should be about living a better life. People get too hung up on finding the truth without thinking about what that should be about.
    Science uses the scientific method of analysis to determine verifiable truth.

    Religion depends on faith-based belief.

    Each represents fundamentally contrasting means of navigating a similar intellectual space: the quest for knowledge. Their methodologies differ, so we must be careful to avoid conflating terminology and approach.

    I don't know what you mean by forming a "personal" philosophy. You either rely on empiricism or you do not. There's no in-between. Using a different approach means you do not require falsifiable facts to make a conclusion.

    Labeling something "arrogant" or "close-minded" is neither here nor there, as it applies to empirical data gathering. In this case, value judgments are meaningless, as statements of value are polymorphous and offer bias. I think this is central to your hang-up.

    And, the analytical dichotomy between empiricism and faith isn't arbitrary. They are as different as night and day.

    I don't have any idea how you might confuse them.

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