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  1. #51
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimmy View Post
    You had to make up 'excuses' to deny faith? If that's the case you never really believed that there could be no god, right?
    No, I was specifying only what happened in the end... I was agnostic for a number of years before that. I should also mention this was the most "successful" but empty and depressing time of my life--although I reached my spiritual beliefs by many different trails of thought on rationality, morality, and human emotions, the experience after I gave genuine belief in God a try is what cemented my final hypothesis. I honestly wish I could explain better but I have spent most of my life observing and saying very little, so I don't quite have the communication skills to match my thoughts.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Did "God" come first or did the human mind?

    I have yet to find a sound justification for why one can assume that "God" preceded the human mind.

    I have asked many this question, wanting to find an answer, haven't received any satisfactory answer as of yet.

    Given that the human mind is proven, I believe that the concept of god rose out of that. Until and unless, this position is falsified [dang hard if ya think about it, cuz we're all limited to the human mind], I hold on to this.

    My greatest awe, fear AND reverence, is for the potential of the human mind. Thus, by extention, of the human being.


    Hence, I'm in awe of our collective imaginations [and its potential: such as conceiving the unexplainable, the beyond, the more, the 'ever-present', the 'ever-goodness', someone greater than us to look out for ourselves, someone greater than ourselves to aim to please, idealize, answer to, as "God"]. I believe that in a way, we as a collective human conscious, are subconsciously fearing the [unknown]limits of our human minds when we conceive "God". It is the mind's limit approaching infinity...this "god".

    My spirituality comes from finding and doing goodness, keeping respect for all (beings, things)around me, at the forefront. I am not nice just because being nice is nice. My niceness has an end in mind; it is because I have an inkling that someone, some-thing, will benefit from my kindness. In this I find my spirituality. Progressing towards a result that helps rather than hinder. As globally as I can conceive.

    If asked, I tell people I do not believe in god, so I guess I can be classified as an 'atheist'. But, the above is a more sound explanation of my position. I also was brought up in Eastern religious philosophy. It [and all other religious works] is highly intriguing for me to read as a philosophical piece. To that end, I believe in certain ways, to the karmic bounce; if only to maintain an overall equilibrium, must it be so (hence, exist).

  3. #53
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Qre:us you seem like a knowledgeble fellow so I am curious about your perspective... out of respect for the OPs request if you would not like to respond that is fine. I don't care to debate, I am just extremely curious about this subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Did "God" come first or did the human mind?

    I have yet to find a sound justification for why one can assume that "God" preceded the human mind.
    Wouldn't this apply to many things in the universe, and as an extension of that, the hypothetical creator of the universe? I.e., for example, the countless galaxies that existed not only before we discovered them but before even we existed. Were they not there if we couldn't see them with our own eyes? To me this is an inkling of what God is, it seems too often it is us who does not understand the concept of infinite. I don't understand why belief in God is considered the choice of "faith", it seems to me those who believe otherwise are throwing out the most likely explanation for our present state of being for lack of scientific proof that we can't hope to ever gather.

    I understand where these people come from... we do not want to believe something for nothing, but if God exists He is not just something, and I think existence of God is far more probable than not. We liken such acknowledgement to ignorant belief of a child that his or her parents will live forever because that's the way they want it to be. On the contrary, I think human motive in the matter is to not believe God exists despite the evidence so we can continue believing we are our own, because even wanting to explain our origins is a sub-motive to that. "Faith like a child" refers to the fact that as we get older we are less likely to distinguish between hypothetically infinite from reality of earth.

    Even now here we are, humans, hypothesizing on the existence or non-existence of something far, far, far beyond our comprehension. What man will point to another and acknowledge him superior in every way? Our minds are already made up here, finding faith in the unseen depends how much of our own "insights" we are willing to let go of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I am not nice just because being nice is nice. My niceness has an end in mind; it is because I have an inkling that someone, some-thing, will benefit from my kindness.
    That is rather... nice of you! I am guessing you want someone else to benefit from your kindness because that strikes you as right? It seems to me that without God morality serves no Darwinian purpose. Kinda like, when the parents are away the kids will play... but does it really make any difference whether we break the lamp if mom and dad ain't ever coming home? From a strictly scientific perspective my life is all that should matter to me, and in fact many people are this selfish but despite that some still concede to an 'arbitrary' moral sense of wrong and right. Who is the fittest of the two? Why do we even have morality is it doesn't fit anywhere in our self-first nature?

  4. #54
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Raised Presbyterian Christian, which I chose to deny/reject in second grade, (Jesus this, Jesus that, :eek: enough already!)

    Raised reformed Jewish until I was 12, this was pleasant, I always enjoyed temple and bible studies, I was allowed to question my faith in a class forum, questions were encouraged.

    Showed/had major doubt in the existence of a God starting in 3rd grade, I now have/feel more certainty in my doubt than I do in my faith.

    Currently an agnostic, technically speaking, yet for all intents and purposes, am a fullblown atheist.

    I am disturbed by those who believe in a God, especially a Judeo-Christian one.
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    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  5. #55
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    That is rather... nice of you! I am guessing you want someone else to benefit from your kindness because that strikes you as right? It seems to me that without God morality serves no Darwinian purpose. Kinda like, when the parents are away the kids will play... but does it really make any difference whether we break the lamp if mom and dad ain't ever coming home? From a strictly scientific perspective my life is all that should matter to me, and in fact many people are this selfish but despite that some still concede to an 'arbitrary' moral sense of wrong and right. Who is the fittest of the two? Why do we even have morality is it doesn't fit anywhere in our self-first nature?
    I think there is an evolutionary advantage in (what is commonly perceived as)moral behaviour, being kind builds a stronger community and stronger communities provide better (more stable) environments for our offspring to grow and carry on our genes. It's the gene that is selfish not the individual.

    Anyway, morals from god are just as arbitrary as any other source (unless you have direct communication to god). The bible for instance has a lot of potential moral contradictions, people pick and choose which moral lessons to follow. What people take from the bible is still just as arbitrary as what an atheist might take from philosophy for example.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  6. #56
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    I think there is an evolutionary advantage in (what is commonly perceived as)moral behaviour, being kind builds a stronger community and stronger communities provide better (more stable) environments for our offspring to grow and carry on our genes. It's the gene that is selfish not the individual.

    Anyway, morals from god are just as arbitrary as any other source (unless you have direct communication to god). The bible for instance has a lot of potential moral contradictions, people pick and choose which moral lessons to follow. What people take from the bible is still just as arbitrary as what an atheist might take from philosophy for example.
    Yes, we are all human our interpretation is subjective. I do not quite get the selfish gene though. If I could further my genetics were I to be willing to kill and steal, etc, and get away with it should I do that? My offspring would not likely to suffer in a communal sense and I would have more to give them, so wouldnt the genetic returns be positive?

    I would like to see your responses but I will probably not respond further, Id rather avoid a debate.

  7. #57
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    ...I would like to see your responses but I will probably not respond further, Id rather avoid a debate.
    Sounds good, this thread is meant to be just a collection of various people's beliefs -- we can debate them in another thread if that is something someone wants to do.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #58
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Sounds good, this thread is meant to be just a collection of various people's beliefs -- we can debate them in another thread if that is something someone wants to do.
    Do we have a moral imperative not to question belief [in this thread]; out to an act of kindness/goodness? Let this one 'be' (?).

    Curious....

    Belief, afterall is borne out of the abstract human mind, if we can't challenge god, could we not spare to challenge the mind as well? In effect, challenging why such beliefs borne out of minds are what they are ['debated'/challenged...justified]?

    On another note, what do we mean when we say, 'everything has its place'? What does that really mean?

  9. #59
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Do we have a moral imperative not to question belief [in this thread]; out to an act of kindness/goodness? Let this one 'be' (?).

    Curious....

    Belief, afterall is borne out of the abstract human mind, if we can't challenge god, could we not spare to challenge the mind as well? In effect, challenging why such beliefs borne out of minds are what they are ['debated'/challenged]?
    Yeah, but debating perspective isn't what I intended with this thread. Granted, the whole of spiritual experience is encouraged by fertility in outlook - both in debate and in explanation.

    Yet, this thread isn't meant for that sort of thing.

    My singular intent is to create an opportunity for people to share their individual ideology -- free from external pressure to defend their stance.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    It's singular intent is to create an opportunity for people to share their individual ideology -- free from external pressure to defend their stance.
    But, the curiosity of why we have [such] idealogies in the first place, individual or not, shouldn't that have its place within our mutual sharing of what they are {latter, understanbly the purpose of this thread}?


    For a more...um...holistic...outlook to the discussion at hand?

    But, you're the OP, O.G.

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