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  1. #91
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The question was more of "how do I define a position which takes on no title but also leaves no theory behind"?
    Actually, I find it interesting how some seem to be struggling with the act of identifying themselves positively on their own terms without directly pitting themselves against another POV expressed in the thread. I didn't think it would be so hard.

    NOTE: Moved a few more posts over to the "Spillover" thread... apparently I missed a few provocative ones when I copied the others, but eventually they will all migrate.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #92
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    Do you?
    Yes I believe in God.

  3. #93
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    More posts moved.

    Again, this is not a debate/criticism thread, please attend the Spillover version for engaged/meta discussion of the issues with religious belief.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #94
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    Yes I believe in God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    It is possible to acknowledge other Gods while adhering to your own.
    I believe it's called "Henotheism".

  5. #95
    Self sustaining supernova Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Do you think it's because in the silence of such places, contemplation, introspection, wondering, is more likely to occur in the human mind versus places with 'noise'? Clarity in thought that transcends a purpose of a thought?

    There's a reason very few of us can achieve a meditative state in the middle of a nightclub. [sans liquid courage]
    It is possible that it is a meditative state, one that is much more likely to occur when a lack (or specific kind) of stimuli is present, but as I do not know for sure (and at present do not have the tools necessary to find out) I think it would be presumptuous of me to say that I am certain whether or not a deity exists of any kind.

    Personally I prefer the idea of humans transcending themselves to greater heights of mental and emotional awareness to a concept of God.

    But I have seen specific others reach that heightened state (to a certain extent) through religion, so I do not dismiss its positive aspects.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    That is rather... nice of you! I am guessing you want someone else to benefit from your kindness because that strikes you as right? It seems to me that without God morality serves no Darwinian purpose. Kinda like, when the parents are away the kids will play... but does it really make any difference whether we break the lamp if mom and dad ain't ever coming home? From a strictly scientific perspective my life is all that should matter to me, and in fact many people are this selfish but despite that some still concede to an 'arbitrary' moral sense of wrong and right. Who is the fittest of the two? Why do we even have morality is it doesn't fit anywhere in our self-first nature?
    Morality has a strong communal benefit. Knowing that one is unlikely to be assaulted or cheated builds a sense of trust that encourages open interaction and commerce. Such societies will dominate others. Naturally an individual can attempt to get ahead in the short-term by breaking the rules, but society strongly discourages this for its own long term benefit.

    Viewed in this regard, religion can be seen as an extension of this desire. Granting people a common focus and incentives to work together (afterlife rewards/punishment) builds a motivated and thus stronger society than one without. The strong survive, so it's been literally bred into humans that faith is strength. This could be seen as a reason why religion generally persists to this day.

    Given the above, and in an attempt to keep somewhat on topic, I'll fully admit that the unity a religion provides is an aspect I regret missing out on in my life. The faithful carry a sense of purpose and contentment with how they see the world, one that's harder (albiet not impossible) to pin down without. But it isn't a hat I can bring myself to wear.

  7. #97
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winged View Post
    It is possible that it is a meditative state, one that is much more likely to occur when a lack (or specific kind) of stimuli is present, but as I do not know for sure (and at present do not have the tools necessary to find out) I think it would be presumptuous of me to say that I am certain whether or not a deity exists of any kind.
    For sure, I wasn't trying to tie in the existence of a deity to meditative states reached in places of solemnity. I just wanted to explore a different tangent of thought (meditative states, and setting(s) perhaps, needed for such). No commentary on diety/no diety.

    Personally I prefer the idea of humans transcending themselves to greater heights of mental and emotional awareness to a concept of God.
    I like this statement very much, and agree deeply with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    The faithful carry a sense of purpose and contentment with how they see the world, one that's harder (albiet not impossible) to pin down without. But it isn't a hat I can bring myself to wear.
    For me personally, it was the opposite.

    I grew up within Eastern theology. I found it to be a lot more metaphysical/intuitive/less defined than the Abrahamic religions (which is more didactic/there are rules to follow). Certain forms of Judaism and Christianity blurs this dichotomy though (and, sufism [of Islam] in the past). The 'mysticism' aspect.

    However, the more I learned about religion(s), in order to see if any really resonated, the more I found every one to have *something* that didn't quite justify. Irritated the Ti.

    So, when I reshaped how I viewed the world (cutting ties to thoughts based in theology), I found a liberation that's hard to describe. A peace with myself, because contradictions lifted...and there was humility in accepting that there's 'gaps' in what I know (don't know), and the excitement to contemplate what those gaps could be. Given that all I had around me, to contemplate, was the mere existence of this natural universe and all things within it. More appreciation for the here and now. My place within it; the grander scheme. I am not special, and there's something special about that thought.

    My sense of purpose in the world became more focused and I started to view my actions not by some pre-determined dictate but by the end-result it would achieve not only for me, but any domino effect(s) that is spurred by it, as far as I can conceive/anticipate.

    Although, I can somewhat (want) relate to the communal feeling being part of a community incites. E.g., community formed by common religion.

    I guess I never felt that 'loss' as being a 'minority' in Canada, we have community centers (that do have religious ceremonies but were more about a bonded commonality/belonging to a group given our culture). Replace religion with culture. I was set.

  8. #98
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    However, the more I learned about religion(s), in order to see if any really resonated, the more I found every one to have *something* that didn't quite justify. Irritated the Ti.

    So, when I reshaped how I viewed the world (cutting ties to thoughts based in theology), I found a liberation that's hard to describe. A peace with myself, because contradictions lifted...and there was humility in accepting that there's 'gaps' in what I know (don't know), and the excitement to contemplate what those gaps could be. Given that all I had around me, to contemplate, was the mere existence of this natural universe and all things within it. More appreciation for the here and now. My place within it; the grander scheme. I am not special, and there's something special about that thought.
    Put more beautifully than I could ever attain.

    This thinking is what I need a name for. Not so much for a sense of community (though I do envy religion in part for just that) but more basically so I don't have to explain it all when relating to others.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  9. #99
    . Blank's Avatar
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    I think one of the most pragmatic and harmonizing answers that I've come across regarding religion is based in Eastern thought, accounted by three men in differing generations in different fields, but can be applied to all schemes of life.

    Sun Tzu - Military Strategist, follower of the Tao - Learning to recognize emptiness and fullness. Within emptiness, there is fullness, within fullness, there is emptiness. Choosing to either be empty or full will imperil you in battle.

    Miyamoto Musashi - Legendary Swordsman, spiritual wanderer - For every need, there is a purpose and a Way to fit the purpose. A carpenter has his tools and his blade for his own cutting purposes, and a samurai has a katana for his. A samurai does not strike down his opponent with the carpenter's tools, nor does a carpenter carve wood with a katana. Choosing to cut with only one of these objects is folly.

    Bruce Lee - Martial Artist, Actor - Having no style is a style. Choosing to practice only Wing-chun will do nothing against a practitioner of Judo, just as Judo will do nothing against a practitioner of Jiu Jutsu. As soon as you choose to limit yourself to one style, you close yourself to the possibility of utilizing other styles, even if they will benefit you.


    The bottom line is, there is paradox in the world, and many pieces of the truth. As soon as you close down the path to one sect's idea of truth, you are blinding yourself to the pieces of truth in the other sects. It is better to follow no sect but your own and follow as many truths as possible.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  10. #100
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    I don't believe in God. If God does exist, then he has no causal relationship to the physical universe, meaning he essentially doesn't exist.

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