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  1. #1
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Default Beating A Dead Horse, vol. 345: Atheism, Theism, Agnosticism and Sheep

    Or, Debunking those (A)theists/(A)gnostics the really dumb way.


    As I all know, Atheists, Agnostics, Theists and Gnostics of every race, creed, breed and sexual orientation have taken over the Philosophy and Spirituality forum. As I all also know, it's less a philosophical debate on the questions that have puzzled you and your ancestors for centuries, nay, millennia and more of a primate shit-slinging match.

    Unfortunately for the mature, responsible members of these forums(such as myself), trolls and nazi's with reagan masks saturate even the rare intelligent threads almost immediately. I might think you may be wondering why I'm bringing it. I bring it, I always bring it. But that is beside the point.

    According to the Flat Earth Society, they are :

    ....not in any way responsible for the failure of the French to repel the Germans at the Maginot Line during WWII. Nor is the Flat Earth Society responsible for the recent yeti sightings outside the Vatican, or for the unfortunate enslavement of the Nabisco Inc. factory employees by a rogue hamster insurrectionist group. Furthermore, we are not responsible for the loss of one or more of the following, which may possibly occur as the result of exposing one's self to the dogmatic and dangerously subversive statements made within: life, limb, vision, Francois Mitterand, hearing, taste, smell, touch, thumb, Aunt Mildred, citizenship, spleen, bedrock, cloves, I Love Lucy reruns, toaster, pine derby racer, toy duck, antelope, horseradish, prosthetic ankle, double-cheeseburger, tin foil, limestone, watermelon-scented air freshner, sanity, paprika, German to Pig Latin dictionary, dish towel, pet Chihuahua, pogo stick, Golf Digest subscription, floor tile, upper torso or halibut.
    Which brings me to my knees and to my point:

    Sheep fall in to two categories, unless they fall off of a cliff, in which case they are lamb chops.

    In the first category, sheep are:

    -Domesticated

    -Kept in a pasture, surrounded by a fence.

    -Protected by their owners from predators.

    -Fed in the winter.

    -Sheltered by a barn or other structure.

    -Slaughtered

    In the second category, sheep are:

    -Wild.

    -Roam free.

    -Find their own shelter.

    -Protect themselves.

    -Find their own food in winter or face starvation.

    -Die of old age, disease or physical confrontations from within the herd or with other wild animals.

    My Question is, if all of the above is true, what associations, relevant to the thread title, can you make between Theists, Atheists, Agnostics, Gnostics and Wild Sheep, Domesticated Sheep?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  2. #2
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    Karl Marx borrowed from Darwin's research on natural selection to affirm his philosophy of dialectical materialism. He described Darwinism as being "the basis and natural history for our view", talking to Angles. Basically, they believed that humans were nothing more than animals, and the driving force behind change and evolution in the universe, animals, and therefore humans, is conflict. It's an atheistic philosophy. Then from this basic philosophy/ideology birthed many... ugly movements in history.

    Horray for humans being bloody animals.

  3. #3
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Marx's diatectical materialism isn't like Darwin's natural selection. If he described it as "the basis and natural history of our view," then he was simply didn't understand natural selection. And his friend was Engles, not Angles.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    And his friend was Engles, not Angles.
    Yes, thank you.

    Marx used Dawin's theories as support for his philosophy, as the idea of creatures evolving through survival of the fittest and the strongest varieties of animal dominating the weaker ones fits in nicely with dialectic materialism philosophy. It was the "scientific" support and basis for the philosophy.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaybeLogic View Post
    My Question is, if all of the above is true, what associations, relevant to the thread title, can you make between Theists, Atheists, Agnostics, Gnostics and Wild Sheep, Domesticated Sheep?
    Well you see it's really a ma-


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    . Blank's Avatar
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    Why is there so much focus on "debunking" non-theists all of a sudden?

    As far as I knew, these groups weren't making claims to debunk.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    Yes, thank you.

    Marx used Dawin's theories as support for his philosophy, as the idea of creatures evolving through survival of the fittest and the strongest varieties of animal dominating the weaker ones fits in nicely with dialectic materialism philosophy. It was the "scientific" support and basis for the philosophy.
    Except that Marx's dialectic materialism, while a kind of evolutionary process, is not like natural selection. Check out Thomas Sowell's Marxism: Philosophy and Economics for more details; Marx's philosophy is actually incompatible with natural selection. The development of Marx's philosophy and the vast majority of his writings predated Darwin and Wallace's original paper on natural selection, so it couldn't have been the "basis" for Marx's philosophy until at least 1860.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Except that Marx's dialectic materialism, while a kind of evolutionary process, is not like natural selection. Check out Thomas Sowell's Marxism: Philosophy and Economics for more details; Marx's philosophy is actually incompatible with natural selection. The development of Marx's philosophy and the vast majority of his writings predated Darwin and Wallace's original paper on natural selection, so it couldn't have been the "basis" for Marx's philosophy until at least 1860.
    Yes, it was late in 1860, after the origin of species was released and read by Marx.

    I'm not arguing with you over the similarities of their views which i think are both flawed as a a 5 legged frog, but that Marx had reverence for Darwin's scientific research and incorporated that perspective as support for his philosophical views.

    International Socialist Review

    The basis for our view

    Only 1,250 copies of the first edition of On the Origin of Species were printed, and they all sold in one day. One of those who obtained a copy was Friedrich Engels, then living in Manchester. Three weeks later, he wrote to Karl Marx:

    Darwin, by the way, whom Im reading just now, is absolutely splendid. There was one aspect of teleology that had yet to be demolished, and that has now been done. Never before has so grandiose an attempt been made to demonstrate historical evolution in Nature, and certainly never to such good effect.1

    When Marx read Origin a year later, he was just as enthusiastic, calling it the book which contains the basis in natural history for our view.2 In a letter to the German socialist Ferdinand Lasalle, he wrote:

    Darwins work is most important and suits my purpose in that it provides a basis in natural science for the historical class struggle Despite all shortcomings, it is here that, for the first time, teleology in natural science is not only dealt a mortal blow but its rational meaning is empirically explained.3

    In 1862 Marx made a point of attending the public lectures on evolution given by Darwins supporter Thomas Huxley, and encouraged his political associates to join him. Wilhelm Liebknecht, a friend and comrade who often visited the Marx family in London, later recalled, when Darwin drew the conclusions from his research work and brought them to the knowledge of the public, we spoke of nothing else for months but Darwin and the enormous significance of his scientific discoveries.4

    Although Marx and Engels criticized various aspects of his clumsy English style of argument, they retained the highest regard for Darwins scientific work for the rest of their lives.5 In his own masterwork, Marx described On the Origin of Species as an epoch-making work.6 In 1872 Marx sent a copy of Capital to Darwin, inscribing it on the part of his sincere admirer, Karl Marx.7

    And in 1883, at Marxs funeral, Engels said, Just as Darwin discovered the law of development of organic nature, so Marx discovered the law of development of human history.8
    If I'm wrong in how Marx viewed Darwinism, then please let me know, preferably with statements from Marx. And If these statements/quotes of Marx are false (I first heard them in historical documentary form), then please feel free to give evidence.

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    Marx would have appreciated Darwin's theory of natural selection, because it provided an account of "design" in nature which didn't require a God-like designer. However, the process of natural selection that Darwin described is distinct from Marx's process of dialectic materialism. In fact, Marx's "labour theory of value" runs in flat contradiction to Darwin's theory of natural selection. Or to put it another way, if Marx's economics were right, then life could not have evolved as Darwin described. I presume that Marx simply didn't understand the implications of Darwin's theory, because I doubt he would have such nice things to say about it if he did.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #10
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaybeLogic View Post
    My Question is, if all of the above is true, what associations, relevant to the thread title, can you make between Theists, Atheists, Agnostics, Gnostics and Wild Sheep, Domesticated Sheep?
    Theists/Gnostics = Domisticated Sheep

    Atheists/Agnostics = Wild Sheep

    Right?

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