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  1. #11
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaybeLogic
    ... stuff...
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post

    Theists/Gnostics = Domisticated Sheep

    Atheists/Agnostics = Wild Sheep

    Right?

    Its almost too close to be coincidence. You must be referencing Slave Morality and Master Morality. I swear that I'm not shoving down this subforums throat! It just keeps coming up on its own... Its hardly systematic (Nietzsche was more of a literary man than a purely philosophical man), but it sure captures the debate. A key point is that neither is absolutely necessarily metaphysically prescriptively more right for everyone than the other...

    Master Morality in this instance i guess is being applied to the nihilistic atheists who aren't domesticated by any moral code other than their personal moral code. Slave Morality in this instance seems to be applied to the theists who are tamed and thus heroically tame the wild animals who wont submit to the morals of the weak...


    ????????????????

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Its almost too close to be coincidence. You must be referencing Slave Morality and Master Morality. I swear that I'm not shoving down this subforums throat! It just keeps coming up on its own... Its hardly systematic (Nietzsche was more of a literary man than a purely philosophical man), but it sure captures the debate. A key point is that neither is absolutely necessarily metaphysically prescriptively more right for everyone than the other...

    Master Morality in this instance i guess is being applied to the nihilistic atheists who aren't domesticated by any moral code other than their personal moral code. Slave Morality in this instance seems to be applied to the theists who are tamed and thus heroically tame the wild animals who wont submit to the morals of the weak...


    ????????????????
    I think atheists are equally, if not more, prone to being controlled by people of power with attractive personalities, organizations, and movements that give them the same sense of belonging and purpose in life that all humans have a psychological NEED for, and is filled by religion for others as opposed to government, personalities, etc. It's part of the reason why fascism and communism succeed in capturing people ideologically, with communism in particular being very atheistic historically. Servitude to the state and to a central power figure/personality fits that need. Since all people have the same basic needs and urges, they succumb to the same traps. It's why those systems can REPLACE religion in societies.

  3. #13
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaybeLogic View Post
    -Slaughtered
    Almost unequivocally negative. Yet for the rest of domestication, the various points could be considered positive. Living in a pasture surrounded by a fence even is not necessarily bad, if ... if it turns out that there is nothing on the other side with value, so the domestic life can be defended. Now, the natural thought is to say that of course there is something valuable on the other side because we are so used to the idea that others are trying to restrict our thoughts and we are always trying to get out and be free. The idea here though is that there exists the possibility that the reasonable thing to do at some point is to rein in your thoughts yourself (or with the help of an "owner", if ... if the owners agenda can be recognized as your own.

    But it does seem that the particular associations you have chosen bait the responses and set up a dichotomy which cannot well inform you. The wild and untame is not necessarily free, so be judicious and discerning and scrutinize carefully your longings.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  4. #14
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Almost unequivocally negative. Yet for the rest of domestication, the various points could be considered positive.
    Sheep are also kept for their wool and milk. My socks are made of wool, actually. But even shearing and pumping aren't pleasant for Sheep.

    Living in a pasture surrounded by a fence even is not necessarily bad, if ... if it turns out that there is nothing on the other side with value, so the domestic life can be defended. Now, the natural thought is to say that of course there is something valuable on the other side because we are so used to the idea that others are trying to restrict our thoughts and we are always trying to get out and be free. The idea here though is that there exists the possibility that the reasonable thing to do at some point is to rein in your thoughts yourself (or with the help of an "owner", if ... if the owners agenda can be recognized as your own.
    As domesticated sheep go, they often attempt to break out of their pastures. Their owners often attribute this behavior to "curiosity", but rarely to dissatisfaction.

    But it does seem that the particular associations you have chosen bait the responses and set up a dichotomy which cannot well inform you. The wild and untame is not necessarily free, so be judicious and discerning and scrutinize carefully your longings.
    Once you've beaten a dead horse for a few hundred years, you realize there aren't any new ways to beat it.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  5. #15
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Theists/Gnostics = Domisticated Sheep

    Atheists/Agnostics = Wild Sheep

    Right?
    I was thinking:

    Atheists/Agnostics may or may not be Domesticated and Wild
    Theists/Gnostics may or may not be Domesticated and Wild
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  6. #16
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I think atheists are equally, if not more, prone to being controlled by people of power with attractive personalities, organizations, and movements that give them the same sense of belonging and purpose in life that all humans have a psychological NEED for, and is filled by religion for others as opposed to government, personalities, etc. It's part of the reason why fascism and communism succeed in capturing people ideologically, with communism in particular being very atheistic historically. Servitude to the state and to a central power figure/personality fits that need. Since all people have the same basic needs and urges, they succumb to the same traps. It's why those systems can REPLACE religion in societies.
    I would agree that most people have a psychological need that seems to be filled by religion. I have seen that same need filled by any number of things. I don't think it's a need to have a higher authority to protect them, as you seem be inferring with your Religion vs. State proposition.
    It could be any person, place, thing or idea to which an individual could apply his "passion". I know a handful of people who belong to the Church of American Football and a few others who belong to the Church of Cheesecake and those churches seem to fill their needs as well as any political or religious system could. It might actually be a bit more realistic to worship something that can be tasted, something that can be proven with a high degree of certainty.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    Its almost too close to be coincidence. You must be referencing Slave Morality and Master Morality. I swear that I'm not shoving down this subforums throat! It just keeps coming up on its own... Its hardly systematic (Nietzsche was more of a literary man than a purely philosophical man), but it sure captures the debate. A key point is that neither is absolutely necessarily metaphysically prescriptively more right for everyone than the other...

    Master Morality in this instance i guess is being applied to the nihilistic atheists who aren't domesticated by any moral code other than their personal moral code. Slave Morality in this instance seems to be applied to the theists who are tamed and thus heroically tame the wild animals who wont submit to the morals of the weak...


    ????????????????
    Kierkegaard's distinction between Aesthetic, Ethical, and Religious modes of thought is far superior to Nietzsche's concepts of Slave and Master morality.

  8. #18
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    Religion is the "answer" to having too much time on one's hands.

  9. #19
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    A key point is that neither is absolutely necessarily metaphysically prescriptively more right for everyone than the other...

    Master Morality in this instance i guess is being applied to the nihilistic atheists who aren't domesticated by any moral code other than their personal moral code. Slave Morality in this instance seems to be applied to the theists who are tamed and thus heroically tame the wild animals who wont submit to the morals of the weak...
    That's basically what I was getting at: But you could say that there are wild theists and domesticated atheists, as well. This is probably a little more confusing, but no less true than the example you presented.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  10. #20
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    I think atheists are equally, if not more, prone to being controlled by people of power with attractive personalities, organizations, and movements that give them the same sense of belonging and purpose in life that all humans have a psychological NEED for, and is filled by religion for others as opposed to government, personalities, etc. It's part of the reason why fascism and communism succeed in capturing people ideologically, with communism in particular being very atheistic historically. Servitude to the state and to a central power figure/personality fits that need. Since all people have the same basic needs and urges, they succumb to the same traps. It's why those systems can REPLACE religion in societies.
    Nietzsche's ideas arent exaclty systematic. I think i pretty much agree with you. The communists, socialists would fall into slave morality, because they function like other slave morality systems do. A master morality religion would be like the Roman religion/empire where might pretty much made right at all levels of society (including their religious stories).

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