Esoteric vs. Exoteric: What of the Ancient Mysteries in regard to Christianity?

[Nyx]

Atheists need not answer.

Lately, I have been having a problem. I have had a renewed interest in religion and Christianity in particular. I have read several books explaining and defending the faith by intellectual authors. They present Christianity in a new, more truthful light than what I had been prejudiced to believe. I was beginning to feel a renewed sense of hope as I began to explore the bible, in particular the Gospels. Then I remembered something. Before finding this new interest in the faith I had been learning about the opposite of these beliefs... The path of the occult, the Ancient Mysteries. I will assume here that you are not familiar with this entirely, and will try to elucidate this subject to the best of my ability. I am not talking of New Age philosophy.

Secret Teachings of All Ages Index

(read the last two chapters for a brief overview, the ones referring the Christianity for a general overview of "Mystic Christianity")

That link is pretty much the definitive modern book about these teachings. The whole history of these schools has obviously been shrouded in secrecy. The reason they give is because most humans are not capable of understanding these mysteries. Only if you had the caliber of mind of Plato and Pythagoras could you ever hope to pass the stages of being an initiate. Even to be an initiate you had to be the best of your generation in all aspects. It is generally accepted that only one or two a generation will become adepts (the last step) in their life time. Most who are initiated into these schools spend their lives studying and committed to the dissolution of the ego. Their ultimate goal is to reach complete separation of mind (godly) and body(animal). They believe immortality of the soul (breaking the living and dying cycle of reincarnation) is achieved through the Self. By learning the mysteries their minds ascend to the level of gods making them immortal. They believe the majority of humanity are stupid and incapable of elevating their consciousness. They believe that it will take most many, many life times to evolve to the state of immortality of the soul. The end of days is presumed to be when all have evolved to this state.

When I really thought about this idea of the Mystery Schools it sounded Luciferian to me (though the majority do not mention Lucifer in any way). The venerate the snake/dragon as a symbol of knowledge/ endless cycle.

Gnosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Theosophy symbol (I guess kind of a modern-day Mystery School):

They worship knowledge as a means to become God/gods. What bothers me about this is that many of the greatest minds of humanity have been initiates to these schools. What if this the truth? I could possibly agree with their view that most people are incapable of having a profound view of the Divine. Manly P. Hall also claims that all religious schools have an esoteric portion, including Christianity (What of the Gnostic Gospels?).

These give a good overview of it :

Exoteric & Esoteric Christianity Comparison

Esoteric Christianity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The views of esoteric Christianity go completely against the exoteric views.

The modern day Mystic Christians are the Rosicrucians.

The Essenes were said to be mystic Jews and some even go as far to claim Mary and Joseph were Essenses and that immaculate conception really means that Jesus was conceived by two people whose egos are purified (all this information can be book in the sacred-texts link about Mystic Christianity).

What about the book a revelation? Gnostics say it is what written by initiates into the mysteries :

The Book of Revelation

Where does all this esoteric information come from? How can one know if it is valid? Where these people really enlightened? Does everything truly have esoteric meaning...if not why do they create such elaborate and obscure subjects?

This is very distressing. I do not know what is true. I was hoping Peguy and others with knowledge about Christianity or those having an understanding of esoteric teachings could give me some insight.

 

[Sniffles]

This is very distressing. I do not know what is true. I was hoping Peguy and others with knowledge about Christianity or those having an understanding of esoteric teachings could give me some insight.

Yeah sure, when I get a chance.

 

[Synapse]

Personally I find the ancient mysteries just as dodge as everything else but I love to speculate. I know this might be a bit off topic but I found this urban myth the other day about a Toltec Jesus Figure and got me wondering.

Toltec "Jesus" Figure
The parallels with the Jesus story in the Christian myth are remarkable. While not put to death by soldiers from a ruling empire, Huemac is driven to his death by an invasion. And like Jesus, his death signals the end of his mortal kingship. Also like Jesus, Huemac and his father, Topiltzin, are associated in the myth with the people and exist as mortals.

Both Jesus and Quetzalcoatl appear in mythology as if they really existed, although there is no proof to be found that they were real persons.

It is interesting that the spirit of Huemac becomes Venus, the Morning Star. This is the very name of Lucifer awarded in the Old Testament to the so-called fallen angel that the Christians believe is now ruling the Earth under the name Satan.

As one writer expressed it: “Quetzalcoatl is to the New World what Christ is to Europe: the center of a religious cosmology and pre-eminent symbol of the civilized nations of Mesoamerica. Both men were considered to be men who ascended into heaven upon their death; Christ to sit at the right hand of God, Quetzalcoatl to become the Morning Star.

“Both were tempted by evil powers; Christ by Satan, Quetzalcoatl by the wizard-god Tezcatlipoca. And both were prophesied to one day return to earth, Christ as the Prince of the Kingdom of Heaven, Quetzalcoatl as a god-king returned to claim his kingdom in Central Mexico.”

Even though these two civilizations existed at opposite ends of the Earth, and at about the same time in history, the same basic story has evolved in local mythology. Like a contemporary movie script, the plot is the same, but the characters and their interaction are altered.

We should, however, exercise caution as we correlate Jesus Christ and Quetzalcoatl as identical personages because of the fact that a 10th‑Century culture hero called Ce Acatl Topiltzin Quetzalcoatl took upon himself the title of the deity Quetzalcoatl. Nevertheless, the deity Quetzalcoatl apparently had its origin in the visit of Jesus Christ to the American continent.

Similarities of Christ and Quetzalcoatl include the following:
1. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were recognized as creator of all things. (Mosiah 4:2; Saenz 1962:19, 40)
2. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were born of virgins. (Alma 7: 10; Gamiz 95)
3. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl are described as being white or as wearing a white robe. (3 Nephi 11:8; Torquemada 47)
4. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl performed miracles. (3 Nephi 26:15; Sejourne 136‑137)
5. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl taught the ordinance of baptism. (3 Nephi 11:23; Irwin 1963:170)
6. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl prophesied of future events. (Ixtlilxochitl: 40)
7. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl were universal as opposed to just being recognized as local gods. (3 Nephi 16: 1; Sejourne 1962)
8. A great destruction was associated with both Christ and Quetzalcoatl at exactly the same time period in history. (3 Nephi 8:5; Ixtlilxochitl: 40)
9. The cross was a symbol to both Christ and Quetzalcoatl. (3 Nephi 27:14; Irwin 1963:165)
10. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl sent out disciples to preach their word. (3 Nephi 12:1; Wirth 1978:55)
11. Both Christ and Quetzalcoatl promised they would come a second time. (2 Nephi 6:14; Sahagun 1:40)
12. A new star is associated with both Christ and Quetzalcoatl. (3 Nephi 1:21; Anales de Cuauhtitlan 7)
13. The children of both Christ and Quetzalcoatl will become lords and heirs of the earth. (4 Nephi 1: 17; Ixtlilxochitl: 40)

Numbers 21:8,9. The Lord said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."
John 3:14-16 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
So here the Bible compares Jesus to that bronze serpent on that pole. That's unique, isn't it. Was this serpent a symbol of Christ?

Jesus as a serpent-god from bas-relief in Egypt. This drawing was made by a member of Napoleon's army in 1798, one hundred years before the same face appeared to the world ’for the first time ever' on the photograph of the Shroud of Turin.

Lets see

Compares with The Shroud of Turin

And am wondering was the Jesus story borrowed from an earlier religion? Was Jesus a Serpent, how do you know he wasn't? I know probably a bit far fetched but still, amused.

 

[Nyx]

There is also a lot of talk among many radical groups Christians (seventh day adventists, mormons, and some catholics) that the Roman Catholic Church is a conspiracy. I found this video interesting: [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1NdVL74LEQ"]The Secret Behind Secret Societies[/YOUTUBE]

I have done a fair amount of research into occult/esoteric things and everything he says checks out. This is quite disturbing.

What is the truth of Christianity?

I don't know why more people are not interested/concerned about this... believer or not, Christianity has shaped much of the last 2,000 years. A thorough study of world history must include this because it is unimaginably widespread (1/3 of the world is Christian!). But why?

 

[Sniffles]

Wow I think this discussion is already getting ahead of itself.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

Honestly Christianity is actually pretty diverse. Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Pentocostal and the others are really not the same. Similar, but no. Actually, the only truth I can speak of, is the truth of Jesus Christ and what is in the bible.
I promice I'm not trying to convert to you
I suppose I look it at it this way, If Jesus wasn't the true God like He claimed to be, then why do people hate him so much? Why are people so disgusted with the thought of Jesus? People take his name in vain...but why not do that to Buddah? Or Muhamid? Or other 'spritual' leaders?
You don't hear people "Buddah damn you!!" or anything like that. Does anyone find that weird? I mean, when I've spoken to people about Jesus Christ, its like people will do anything to shut you up...but if you talk about other religions gods, we have to be 'tolerant' or 'open minded'.
Here's another thing. Alot of people will tell you that Jesus was just a good teacher, a wonderful prophet. But from what the bible tells us, Jesus could only be 3 things from what he talked about. He CLAIMED to be God in the flesh. He CLAIMED he was the Messiah. These are pretty drastic comments to make. Really he could only be 1 of the following.
-Crazy
-Satain
-Or he's who he claims to be.
If you lived in the time Jesus was around, from the statements he made that were so controversal, would you say he was a good teacher?

I appologize that this probably had nothing to do with your questions and thoughts...I just suppose I thought I'd put that out there. It's really something to think about.

But good luck in your quest to the truth.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

Ohhhh, one more thing from what you asked about Jesus being a serpaint and such.

Numbers 21:8,9. The Lord said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."
John 3:14-16 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Those versus are showing us what will happen in the future in the bible. Foreshadowing.
When the Lord told moses to put the snake on a pole and lift it to the sky so all the people coulds see and be healed, God was foreshadowing Christs death.
When Jesus was crusified, he was lifted into the sky on the cross and all who looked to him and believed where forgiven of their sins, they're fate was sealed with Jesus Christ. They'll have eternal life in heaven.
Its not saying that Jesus was a serpaint or anything like that, its just a foreshadow of Christs death.

I can help with any specific questions you have with Christianity. Um but I cannot read the things about any new age type of things or anything that dwells in new age philosephy [im not sure if those were the links you were giving out.]. It's a personal reasoning behind that I do not allow myself to, but if you have questions about anything else I can try to help. I'm not a huge buff in all of it, but I know Christianity

 

[Nyx]

Wow I think this discussion is already getting ahead of itself.

As in going in the wrong/loony direction or hitting on truth/something significant?

Honestly Christianity is actually pretty diverse. Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, Pentocostal and the others are really not the same. Similar, but no. Actually, the only truth I can speak of, is the truth of Jesus Christ and what is in the bible.
I promice I'm not trying to convert to you
I suppose I look it at it this way, If Jesus wasn't the true God like He claimed to be, then why do people hate him so much? Why are people so disgusted with the thought of Jesus? People take his name in vain...but why not do that to Buddah? Or Muhamid? Or other 'spritual' leaders?
You don't hear people "Buddah damn you!!" or anything like that. Does anyone find that weird? I mean, when I've spoken to people about Jesus Christ, its like people will do anything to shut you up...but if you talk about other religions gods, we have to be 'tolerant' or 'open minded'.
Here's another thing. Alot of people will tell you that Jesus was just a good teacher, a wonderful prophet. But from what the bible tells us, Jesus could only be 3 things from what he talked about. He CLAIMED to be God in the flesh. He CLAIMED he was the Messiah. These are pretty drastic comments to make. Really he could only be 1 of the following.
-Crazy
-Satain
-Or he's who he claims to be.
If you lived in the time Jesus was around, from the statements he made that were so controversal, would you say he was a good teacher?

I appologize that this probably had nothing to do with your questions and thoughts...I just suppose I thought I'd put that out there. It's really something to think about.

But good luck in your quest to the truth.

I don't mind at all that it's off topic. I like the direction this thread is going in and I'm waiting to see if anyone else can add anything. I really thing this is such an important topic. Christianity's influence permeates almost everything.

Aah, yes I am familiar with the "trilemma" popularized by Christian apologist C.S. Lewis. I think Lewis is good for general, basic apologetics, but more extensive, deeper apologetics are needed for a better defense of faith. Jesus as Liar, Lunatic, or Lord...

The premises are as follows.

(P): Jesus claimed to be God.

(Q): One of the following must be true.

1. Lunatic: Jesus was not God, but believed that he was.
2. Liar: Jesus did not believe he was God, but spoke as if he did.
3. Lord: Jesus is God.

From these premises, it is argued, it follows that,

(C): If not God, Jesus is either not great or not moral.

Wikipedia: Lewis's trilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ohhhh, one more thing from what you asked about Jesus being a serpaint and such.



Those versus are showing us what will happen in the future in the bible. Foreshadowing.
When the Lord told moses to put the snake on a pole and lift it to the sky so all the people coulds see and be healed, God was foreshadowing Christs death.
When Jesus was crusified, he was lifted into the sky on the cross and all who looked to him and believed where forgiven of their sins, they're fate was sealed with Jesus Christ. They'll have eternal life in heaven.
Its not saying that Jesus was a serpaint or anything like that, its just a foreshadow of Christs death.

I can help with any specific questions you have with Christianity. Um but I cannot read the things about any new age type of things or anything that dwells in new age philosephy [im not sure if those were the links you were giving out.]. It's a personal reasoning behind that I do not allow myself to, but if you have questions about anything else I can try to help. I'm not a huge buff in all of it, but I know Christianity

Well, what are your opinions of infallibility of the Bible? From what you are saying, that is crucial to your faith. What can back this up so it is possible to be confident with your faith? I have done my own research into this and am currently awaiting the arrival of my books about this subject. I am fascinated by this subject. Jesus's teachings are revolutionary and perfect... but what about the rest of the bible? What about the interpretation of Jesus as Savior? The apostles were the ones proclaiming this, but I do not think Jesus ever out right said "I am the Savior." He did proclaim he was the Son of God and The Way, The Truth, and The Life, however.

I am slightly uncomfortable when people quote the bible when trying to back up what they were saying. Is faith alone that it was divinely inspired? I do not know because I have so much to learn about the Church and Christianity before I decide to place my trust in Jesus.

I would love to hear your perspective on faith if you care to share.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

Sadly, I wrote this whole thing out for you....but it logged me out and erased it all.
It was really good too x/
Tomorrow I'll come on when I'm not all tired so I can give you proper information.
I'm sorry its taking so long.

 

[Nyx]

Oh, I'm sorry! Hate it so much, especially when you feel like you put your thoughts down just right.

 

[Sniffles]

As in going in the wrong/loony direction or hitting on truth/something significant?

Well concerning the relationship between Christianity and certain esoteric traditions, it has gone in the wrong direction a bit.

 

[Nyx]

I did not realize there was SO much literature about this subject out there

There are so many scholarly works I found refuting and discrediting historical Jesus.

I found this website :POCM Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth > POCM > Christianity is another ancient Pagan religion.

Though there have been countless books written refuting these claims like :

Jesus Legend, The: A Case for the Historical Reliability of the Synoptic Jesus Tradition

Gregory Boyd, Paul Eddy

The Son of God: The Origin of Christology and the History of Jewish-Hellenistic Religion

Martin Hengel


NT Wright and Richard Bauckham also have many compelling pro- historical Jesus books. I have noticed most of the people pushing the pagan stuff in my faith are atheists and scholars who assert this are commonly atheists as well.

I think in the end Christian scholars defend Jesus and non-believers promote the pagan idea. Everyone has their own agenda but the problem is that this material is so complex and the scholars on both sides, erudite, it makes it hard for me to find the truth. The big question is God or no God? I believe in God, so I am in favor of the compelling evidence for historical Jesus.

The whole pagan thing is based off suppression of these purported earlier Christian-pagans. That they were the origin Christians but in the third century they were suppressed and there teachings turned from esoteric to exoteric for the slow-witted masses... as a means of control, I am guessing is the argument. I think must of this has been refuted thoroughly though. Aaah so confusing.

I have much studying to do.

 

[Sniffles]

Did you happen to read this by any chance?
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions by Ronald Nash, a Biblical scholar.

Another piece by the same author on a similar topic: Was the New Testament influenced by Pagan philosophy?.


Scholars have noted that the influence flowed both ways, so even Christianity influenced the pagan religions as well.

 

[Synapse]

I am a fence sitter Stepho, while I find this whole topic fascinating I am a misfit. I start classic threads like Why Women Need The Goddess, Peguy should know the reference to that. Curiosity and mischief are good qualities to have for then you question the status quo and why this was established in the first place, in other words I'm unable to give good advice since this area interests me to some extent yet in others less so.

You can always try to read many ideas, I tried and learned stuff but I don't know what. Internet Sacred Text Archive Home has interesting reading.

I suppose faith is wonderful so long you have self belief too.
I disagree with too much to accept much.
faith is like a road, when you are on it you live by it, when you are off it you live by something or other.

[youtube="oQu1TBIMSSk"]We're All Going to Hell[/youtube]
hahaha I just found a video, I think I'm in love.

Esoteric ideas are misguided, intellectuals converge to them because they become disillusioned with religious ideas and want to secure their insecurity in faith that has a basis of belief in what most resonates with their ability to comprehend what manifests in the inner and outer reality. which to me is akin to wanting to belong to something that has been well traveled, that we aren't alone. whether being well traveled resonates as the absolute truth or a universal escapade into dimensions that are different to what constituted ideology in any essence. a need to find security in the self and in what may come beyond this reality as an anchor, a foundation to existence. and each existence is hinged upon the acceptance of what traditional and non traditional view extrapolates from the core values that most resonate and in doing so manipulate the essence to believe something that is in existence can inherently be that which reality deems beyond comprehension. would limited thoughts and black and white thinking play into the conglomeration of ideas, most certainly. like a sales pitch vying to integrate into their mythos the established worldview and belief and you interpret that according to how you wish. In the end there is some truth in everything, but not enough to entice me to belief. I acknowledge the extraordinary history that pervades humanity. Yet is this a rich history full of wonder and achievement I sometimes wonder, it is an achievement certainly. As to the detail I remain undecided.

 

[Nyx]

Did you happen to read this by any chance?
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions by Ronald Nash, a Biblical scholar.

Another piece by the same author on a similar topic: Was the New Testament influenced by Pagan philosophy?.


Scholars have noted that the influence flowed both ways, so even Christianity influenced the pagan religions as well.

I have not read that, but this is exactly along the lines of other things I am reading right now. I am not sure how to take it. As long as this does not undermine Jesus as the Savior ,or God, I can accept Catholicism. And I want to...it is so beautiful.

Do you think this pagan connection undermines Christianity?

I am a fence sitter Stepho, while I find this whole topic fascinating I am a misfit. I start classic threads like Why Women Need The Goddess, Peguy should know the reference to that. Curiosity and mischief are good qualities to have for then you question the status quo and why this was established in the first place, in other words I'm unable to give good advice since this area interests me to some extent yet in others less so.

You can always try to read many ideas, I tried and learned stuff but I don't know what. Internet Sacred Text Archive Home has interesting reading.

I suppose faith is wonderful so long you have self belief too.
I disagree with too much to accept much.
faith is like a road, when you are on it you live by it, when you are off it you live by something or other.

[youtube="oQu1TBIMSSk"]We're All Going to Hell[/youtube]
hahaha I just found a video, I think I'm in love.

Esoteric ideas are misguided, intellectuals converge to them because they become disillusioned with religious ideas and want to secure their insecurity in faith that has a basis of belief in what most resonates with their ability to comprehend what manifests in the inner and outer reality. which to me is akin to wanting to belong to something that has been well traveled, that we aren't alone. whether being well traveled resonates as the absolute truth or a universal escapade into dimensions that are different to what constituted ideology in any essence. a need to find security in the self and in what may come beyond this reality as an anchor, a foundation to existence. and each existence is hinged upon the acceptance of what traditional and non traditional view extrapolates from the core values that most resonate and in doing so manipulate the essence to believe something that is in existence can inherently be that which reality deems beyond comprehension. would limited thoughts and black and white thinking play into the conglomeration of ideas, most certainly. like a sales pitch vying to integrate into their mythos the established worldview and belief and you interpret that according to how you wish. In the end there is some truth in everything, but not enough to entice me to belief. I acknowledge the extraordinary history that pervades humanity. Yet is this a rich history full of wonder and achievement I sometimes wonder, it is an achievement certainly. As to the detail I remain undecided.

I think you are right on about the esoteric stuff, I have come to similar conclusions myself. The systems are very complex and convoluted in logic, it is amazing what the human mind can distort from, perhaps, what is a kernel of truth.

I just found this which was very enlightening: JESUS CHRIST, THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE
Pontifical Council for Culture & Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue

This is an overview of the New Age movement which brought about this renewed interest in "gnosis" and esotericism. Everything stated therein lines up perfectly within everything I have learned about it. Initially I was very interested in esotericism when I started my spiritual quest, but ultimately rejected to have any real truth. Of course, from their perspective, I am just a lump of flesh without the capabilities to be initiated. Ah, well. If that's true I have unlimited life times to learn my lesson!

This subject is very interesting and very strange...what does this whole idea of esotericism in relation to government say about us? How did these beliefs come about? Personally, I feel like it is a sign of the times (end times that is) that humanity is trying to move toward merging all of its respective beliefs together to achieve gnosis. This is the exact opposite of what Christianity teaches. I don't think the occult is necessarily Luciferian in teachings (and most people are so vague with their beliefs that they are not worshiping knowledge), but taken to an extreme it most definitely is: the worship of knowledge...elevating the Self to God. The Pontifical document talks about this preoccupation with the Self.

and this:HUMANUM GENUS (On Freemasonry)
Pope Leo XIII

Freemasonry is definitely the enemy of Catholicism, and is the root of the modern interest in western esotericism. Some extreme Christians argue that the Vatican actually controls them and everything else. The same people say John Paul II was the Antichrist because of his "twisted" cross staff thing ...its the Whore of Babylon etc etc

Yeah, I think that's s bit far-fetched.

I am disturbed by this though:

In God's Name: An Investigation Into the Murder of Pope John Paul I

The Vatican seems like it is hiding something and corrupt, but I honestly am unable to make a valid judgment. There is war going on Catholicism against everything else. Our current culture is in direct opposition to its teachings. I did not realize how much Anti-Catholicism and blatantly false propaganda is out there. I do not understand why. I am trying to find reliable information about it.




btw Synapse, that video is catchy!

 

[Sniffles]

I have not read that, but this is exactly along the lines of other things I am reading right now. I am not sure how to take it. As long as this does not undermine Jesus as the Savior ,or God, I can accept Catholicism. And I want to...it is so beautiful.

Do you think this pagan connection undermines Christianity?

No it doesn't. As GK Chesterton put it wonderfully, being Christian doesn't mean you stop being human.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

Sorry it took me so long to reply. Some of this stuff, when it gets into history and such really confusses me so I tend to veer off. But I'm going to try and reply the best I can

Well, what are your opinions of infallibility of the Bible? From what you are saying, that is crucial to your faith. What can back this up so it is possible to be confident with your faith? I have done my own research into this and am currently awaiting the arrival of my books about this subject. I am fascinated by this subject. Jesus's teachings are revolutionary and perfect... but what about the rest of the bible? What about the interpretation of Jesus as Savior? The apostles were the ones proclaiming this, but I do not think Jesus ever out right said "I am the Savior." He did proclaim he was the Son of God and The Way, The Truth, and The Life, however.

I personally, see the Bible as being completely God-breathed, true. I realise alot of people think that the true meaning of the bible has been lost in translation, but I honestly don't believe that to be. I found a link that I think would be interesting to read through here. That right there will explain my points of proving the bible to be true. But in the end of it all, its about faith. I do realise that alot of people dont like that because they want solid proof right here. I can understand that. But really, christianity is faith in Jesus Christ. Thats what it is. Its believe the bible is true and that God, overall, is love.

What about the interpretation of Jesus as Savior? The apostles were the ones proclaiming this, but I do not think Jesus ever out right said "I am the Savior." He did proclaim he was the Son of God and The Way, The Truth, and The Life, however

Well, the way I see it is that no other human being on earth has ever been The Way, The Truth, and The Light, nor have they out right said they were like Jesus did. See, Jesus is saying He IS the truth, He IS the light and that He IS the way. If you think about it and agree, if there was no Jesus, would there be a way, a truh, or a light if thats who Jesus is? I mean, just from my thinking process, if his disciples kept telling everyone that He is that Savior, [and if he's the son of God, the light, the truth and the way], wouldn't Jesus have out right told his diciples to knock it off if he wasn't? If he's the truth, why would he alow his disciples to lie to all the nations of people? Thats just a personal thought there.

I am slightly uncomfortable when people quote the bible when trying to back up what they were saying. Is faith alone that it was divinely inspired? I do not know because I have so much to learn about the Church and Christianity before I decide to place my trust in Jesus.

I don't know about others, but I only quote the bible so people can look it up themselves if they question what im saying to be true. Alot of people just talk about whats in the bible without even reading it, they make judgements and claims when their eyes have never even read a single word of it. So for myself I quote it so the others have something to use as preference if they want to look back at it. I dont wanna say "oh the bible says this", and never be able to pin point where its at.
In all honesty, we're all still learning about Jesus and the Church and Christianity. We're always learning, I know I am. I can tell you the truth, I've never regretted accepting Jesus Christ as my savior the more and more I learn about him. Never. In fact, it makes me so relieved that He calls me His and I love learning more about him. I think alot of people get this idea that christians are hypocrites and we're all judgemental and not in tune with reality [im sure some are] but thats not what Jesus calls us to be. If anyone is doing those things in Jesus name, they're going against everything Jesus taught about loving eachother and putting others before ourselves.
Honestly, Jesus and God put a calmness in my heart and allows me to open my eyes to whats true. He allows me to love when I know I'd want to hate. It all boils down to this. Love God, love others, love yourself. Thats it. Thats the whole point of who God is.

I would love to hear your perspective on faith if you care to share.

I enjoy sharing. I hope that nothing I've said has come across as offensive because that is deffinatley not the way it should be taken. [I always have to say that JUST in case i've said something stupid]

 

[Synapse]

Did you happen to read this by any chance?
Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions by Ronald Nash, a Biblical scholar.

Scholars have noted that the influence flowed both ways, so even Christianity influenced the pagan religions as well.

That sounds about right, influences are interchangeable easily.

What I find wrong is the assumptions on both sides, Christianity makes leaps of faith as they say on issues while turning a blind eye to others. While the same can be said of Pagan ideology. It is in the way ideas are formulated around the words that are transmitted, the translation to popular culture and the influences that these ideas generate that creates dissonance. As my lecturer once said we don't know what our true past is, it is a time line of ideas that we exist in. Who can say that this was not so millions of years ago, any tangible evidence would turn to dust either way. Patterns are a recurring theme and I like finding them by acquainting myself with as many different thoughts as possible and Christianity is one of them.

What is good about you is the breadth of knowing your subject matter and reaching into the detail that you find as relevant and that you can draw upon to share with others who want to understand your perspective. And having that kind of passion definitely is good to have. For then you are expressing your authentic self outwardly. In many ways I've been afraid to express my ideas lest they be offensive. And that is the point, who cares, haha, we all find the truth in what we need to sustain our essence in this time frame and to suppress what itch we have festers without understanding. This is something I'm learning, I forgot how to ask and that is crucial in the learning process and whether or not anyone wants to answer or gets annoyed is irrelevant to the personal development in understanding the issues that most need addressing to be comfortable in ones own skin I'd say.

Do you think this pagan connection undermines Christianity?

I think you are right on about the esoteric stuff, I have come to similar conclusions myself. The systems are very complex and convoluted in logic, it is amazing what the human mind can distort from, perhaps, what is a kernel of truth.

I just found this which was very enlightening: JESUS CHRIST, THE BEARER OF THE WATER OF LIFE
Pontifical Council for Culture & Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue

This is an overview of the New Age movement which brought about this renewed interest in "gnosis" and esotericism. Everything stated therein lines up perfectly within everything I have learned about it. Initially I was very interested in esotericism when I started my spiritual quest, but ultimately rejected to have any real truth. Of course, from their perspective, I am just a lump of flesh without the capabilities to be initiated. Ah, well. If that's true I have unlimited life times to learn my lesson!

This subject is very interesting and very strange...what does this whole idea of esotericism in relation to government say about us? How did these beliefs come about? Personally, I feel like it is a sign of the times (end times that is) that humanity is trying to move toward merging all of its respective beliefs together to achieve gnosis. This is the exact opposite of what Christianity teaches. I don't think the occult is necessarily Luciferian in teachings (and most people are so vague with their beliefs that they are not worshiping knowledge), but taken to an extreme it most definitely is: the worship of knowledge...elevating the Self to God. The Pontifical document talks about this preoccupation with the Self.

btw Synapse, that video is catchy!

Thanks, a classic video.

I tend to agree with your sentiments. This topic sparked my interest I had in the subject that I put on the backburner for awhile. Best fit to what resonates is the way to go. What you can be proud of to consider as a representation of your reality is good. I've always thought that New Age is a rehash of old thoughts and should be called Old Age Revived or something lol. Either way it is another perspective that adds to the tapestry that creates the sub personalities of the movements that proliferate.

Personally I find understanding as many different spiritual and religious interpretations beneficial to the whole understanding of what it means to be. I find that if people, and this is just me focus on singular perspectives then they are limiting themselves and blocking out perspectives outside of their beliefs. This is fine so long as people understand that there are millions of people that worship and believe in ideology that is different. And that difference needs to be questioned, as to why exactly are there so many different perspectives alluding to a similar yet dissimilar system of function. Is this basis like a typological construct in religions and spiritual functionality that piques an interest for certain persons more than others. Its like we are speaking in tongues through what is meant to be uniform and causes incredible politics, division and opposition rather than being universally acceptable.

I personally, see the Bible as being completely God-breathed, true. I realise alot of people think that the true meaning of the bible has been lost in translation, but I honestly don't believe that to be.

Well, the way I see it is that no other human being on earth has ever been The Way, The Truth, and The Light, nor have they out right said they were like Jesus did. See, Jesus is saying He IS the truth, He IS the light and that He IS the way. If you think about it and agree, if there was no Jesus, would there be a way, a truh, or a light if thats who Jesus is?

Honestly, Jesus and God put a calmness in my heart and allows me to open my eyes to whats true. He allows me to love when I know I'd want to hate. It all boils down to this. Love God, love others, love yourself. Thats it. Thats the whole point of who God is.

I enjoy sharing. I hope that nothing I've said has come across as offensive because that is deffinatley not the way it should be taken. [I always have to say that JUST in case i've said something stupid]

I enjoy listening by the way. The true beauty behind each individual is their passion for their specific subject matter, so it is without a doubt that is what will give you clout for being yourself. Life is a learning curve and it is with each person that we learn something new by questing, questioning and discovering pieces of truth wherever they may be.

"Not only is the Bible historically accurate, but when it deals with scientific subjects, it is also reliable. This is one of the reasons the Bible can be accepted as a trustworthy document that should be taken literally. Although it was not written as a textbook on history, science, mathematics or medicine, when the writers of Scripture touch on these subjects, they were inspired by God not to make mistakes, but to write what was true—sometimes stating facts that scientific advancement would not reveal or even consider for thousands of years. "

However I'm astonished reading paragraphs like those, the literally bit is a worry.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

I enjoy listening by the way. The true beauty behind each individual is their passion for their specific subject matter, so it is without a doubt that is what will give you clout for being yourself. Life is a learning curve and it is with each person that we learn something new by questing, questioning and discovering pieces of truth wherever they may be.

I totally agree with you. Everybody has a story as to why their at the place their at. I'm fascinated with the history of each individual because it allows me to see THEM. People in general interest me, so to hear what people believe is something I enjoy as well

"Not only is the Bible historically accurate, but when it deals with scientific subjects, it is also reliable. This is one of the reasons the Bible can be accepted as a trustworthy document that should be taken literally. Although it was not written as a textbook on history, science, mathematics or medicine, when the writers of Scripture touch on these subjects, they were inspired by God not to make mistakes, but to write what was true—sometimes stating facts that scientific advancement would not reveal or even consider for thousands of years. "

However I'm astonished reading paragraphs like those, the literally bit is a worry.

In what way does this worry you?

 

[Synapse]

I totally agree with you. Everybody has a story as to why their at the place their at. I'm fascinated with the history of each individual because it allows me to see THEM. People in general interest me, so to hear what people believe is something I enjoy as well

In what way does this worry you?

Yep, its people who make the world go round, the experiences and backgrounds to how each person comes to the ideas they do interests me too.

You know if you take the Bible literally then where would people be?
For instance

"If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched." (Mark 9:43)

Are you then going to self-mutilate if your eyes or hands sinned? Of course not, wouldn't that be better said as some parts literal while others figuratively speaking? The entire statement is a bit sus if you ask me.