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for those against abortion

S

Sniffles

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Now this is a rather interesting take on the connection between abortion and womens' rights:
"Her Choice, Her Problem: How Abortion Empowers Men":

"Throughout human history, children have been the consequence of natural sexual relations between men and women. Both sexes knew they were equally responsible for their children, and society had somehow to facilitate their upbringing. Even the advent of birth control did not fundamentally change this dynamic, for all forms of contraception are fallible.

Elective abortion changes everything. Abortion absolutely prevents the birth of a child. A woman’s choice for or against abortion breaks the causal link between conception and birth. It matters little what or who caused conception or whether the male insisted on having unprotected intercourse. It is she alone who finally decides whether the child comes into the world. She is the responsible one. For the first time in history, the father and the doctor and the health-insurance actuary can point a finger at her as the person who allowed an inconvenient human being to come into the world.

The deepest tragedy may be that there is no way out. By granting to the pregnant woman an unrestrained choice over who will be born, we make her alone to blame for how she exercises her power. Nothing can alter the solidarity-shattering impact of the abortion option."
 

Haphazard

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What I'm saying is that yes many miscarriages are the problem of the chromosomes that make up the fetus but sometimes women have various conditions or diseases that makes them especially prone to miscarriages.

These women who are at high-risk for miscarriages should not be allowed to have babies because they are needlessly exposing a LIVING BEING, their CHILD, to an inordinate amount of risk. They are POISONING IT by allowing it to live in their body.

By extension, because ANY sex can lead to pregnancy, regardless of use of contraceptives, these women should NOT be allowed to engage in sex AT ALL because they MAY be putting their BABIES at RISK.
 
S

Sniffles

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Having the choice will at least make you not feel helpless, I think....No doubt that women can deal with it without having an abortion but..I dunno, having the choice is somethign I consider very important. It takes away that feeling of helplessness. It makes you feel like you do have control over your own life, even if the choices you face are not exactly great, on the contrary.

But the choice involved here concerns the life of another person. Not only that in order to get to the stage where the choice between an abortion or not you have already made more than a few choices already. Control over your own life, ok I sympathize with that - but I will stress that striving towards self-control is the best way to achieve that.
 

Usehername

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What about those who have no compuctions about murder? For example, honour killings are acknowledged as murder in some cultures and yet are encouraged. I don't think the definition matters so much as the act itself. Since we have no objective, universally recognized guidelines by which to judge that act, it leaves us in the position of the most powerful making a judgement call or else agreeing that everyone should do what they feel is right in the least harmful way.

The definition of life does matter though. It's of the highest importance. Everyone agrees you're ending a life in honour killings; with abortion it's split down the middle and many believe that there's nothing human at all about a fetus. It's not the same thing.

What I'm saying is that yes many miscarriages are the problem of the chromosomes that make up the fetus but sometimes women have various conditions or diseases that makes them especially prone to miscarriages.

These women who are at high-risk for miscarriages should not be allowed to have babies because they are needlessly exposing a LIVING BEING, their CHILD, to an inordinate amount of risk. They are POISONING IT by allowing it to live in their body.

By extension, because ANY sex can lead to pregnancy, regardless of use of contraceptives, these women should NOT be allowed to engage in sex AT ALL because they MAY be putting their BABIES at RISK.

^What was this in response to? Without the context I'm missing some of what you're trying to say here.
 

Amargith

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Peguy: Sex is a part of life..one that doesn't allow itself to be restrained often, so it's unrealistic to expect people to not get into this predicament. And even with responsible use of contraceptives, accidents will happen. And then there's rape. There's no way to avoid this situation. So, as horrible as it is, this choice has to exist, imo.
 

Haphazard

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^What was this in response to? Without the context I'm missing some of what you're trying to say here.

I was wondering if stillborn babies and miscarriages are the mother's fault if they're not the fault of chromosomal errors, and if she therefore killed a child.

I think the answers of some people here would be 'yes'.
 

Usehername

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I was wondering if stillborn babies and miscarriages are the mother's fault if they're not the fault of chromosomal errors, and if she therefore killed a child.

I think the answers of some people here would be 'yes'.

Nobody's going to answer yes to that. The best you'll get is finding that this illuminates a fallacious line of reasoning. What line of reasoning were you trying to draw out?
 
S

Sniffles

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Peguy: Sex is a part of life..one that doesn't allow itself to be restrained often, so it's unrealistic to expect people to not get into this predicament. And even with responsible use of contraceptives, accidents will happen. And then there's rape. There's no way to avoid this situation. So, as horrible as it is, this choice has to exist, imo.

I never denied sex is a part of life, and that people are going to be people(myself included). However, that doesn't refute what I said. People still have the ability to control themselves to a reasonable extent, unless they suffer from a severe psychological condition.

That's the whole point behind having choices and controlling your life, you accept the fact you can control yourself to such an extent and take responsibilities for those choices you make - otherwise you're not fit to be in that situation.

I should also mention that in order to truely appreciate the fact one has the freedom to make choices and control their lives involves a certain appreciation for life as an end in itself. That means concluding that existence is better than non-existence. It doesn't take long to figure out where this leads in terms of discussing abortion.
 

Haphazard

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Nobody's going to answer yes to that. The best you'll get is finding that this illuminates a fallacious line of reasoning. What line of reasoning were you trying to draw out?

That until the point that the baby can survive outside of the womb it's still a part of the mother, otherwise these fetuses would need to be taken away by child services.

Unless child services do this already and I'm not aware.
 

Amargith

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Peguy, see Jennifers argument to Risen for that. I'm out ;)
 

Usehername

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That until the point that the baby can survive outside of the womb it's still a part of the mother, otherwise these fetuses would need to be taken away by child services.

Unless child services do this already and I'm not aware.

That's a valid argument. :)

(Though I suspect it won't be long before they can grow babies completely in labs. They are already partway figuring out how to grow organs.)
 

Haphazard

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That's a valid argument. :)

(Though I suspect it won't be long before they can grow babies completely in labs. They are already partway figuring out how to grow organs.)

Well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms, you know, wondering whether vegetarians would start eating meat again if the meat was grown as just the tissue and you didn't have to kill an animal to eat it.
 

ayoitsStepho

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When you think about it, if a man really wanted to, couldnt he sue the woman who's getting an abortion? If he put a part of himself in her and its forming a baby and she decides to abort it...cant a man sue her? Thats a part of him that she's aborting. It's his just as it is hers. So does that mean she gets the full choice of the destination of such a fetus just because its IN her body?
Yes I realise some men dont actually care, but what if a man DID care? I'm just trying to switch this to another point of view because the genes in that child share the fathers just as they do the mother.
 

Fidelia

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The definition of life does matter though. It's of the highest importance. Everyone agrees you're ending a life in honour killings; with abortion it's split down the middle and many believe that there's nothing human at all about a fetus. It's not the same thing.

But who gets to define what life is? By permitting abortions, we have decided that it is not life, or at least not viable life. By outlawing them you are deciding it is and therefore constitutes murder. Do we just poll everyone? No. It comes down to someone arbitrarily deciding. That doesn't make it any more right than someone arbitrarily deciding whose life (which is not viable without support) matters most. (Terrie Shivo's husband didn't believe she was actually "living", while her parents did. It was ultimately decided by a judge, according to that judges information and personal beliefs.) In some cultures, handicapped people and the extremely sick or elderly didn't have lives that were considered worthy of supporting. I'm just saying that the reasoning of permitting one and outlawing another doesn't make any sense. It's not as easy as saying you don't want to impose your beliefs on others. No matter what happens, someone's beliefs will be imposed on the rest of the population and those beliefs do have societal consequences.
 

Blank

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When you think about it, if a man really wanted to, couldnt he sue the woman who's getting an abortion? If he put a part of himself in her and its forming a baby and she decides to abort it...cant a man sue her? Thats a part of him that she's aborting. It's his just as it is hers. So does that mean she gets the full choice of the destination of such a fetus just because its IN her body?
Yes I realise some men dont actually care, but what if a man DID care? I'm just trying to switch this to another point of view because the genes in that child share the fathers just as they do the mother.

Part of the problem is that when a man has sex, he will only ever experience the act as just sex. When a woman has sex, she has the burden of being infected by a potentially lethal parasite for nine months. It's kind of like saying if I gave you tape worm and tried to sue you for removing it. It sounds a little preposterous. Of course we're talking about a fetus, so there is a BIG difference between that and a tapeworm. Also, in your example, then women would have to fight the court about cases of rape. (The morning after pill is a bullshit argument, imo.)

Also to the thread in general: Compare a fetus to an egg. If you went to a chicken coop and grabbed 3 eggs and dropped two, would you feel worse for breaking a shell and seeing a red dot, or would you feel worse seeing an almost full baby chicken?
 

Lateralus

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When you think about it, if a man really wanted to, couldnt he sue the woman who's getting an abortion? If he put a part of himself in her and its forming a baby and she decides to abort it...cant a man sue her? Thats a part of him that she's aborting. It's his just as it is hers. So does that mean she gets the full choice of the destination of such a fetus just because its IN her body?
Yes I realise some men dont actually care, but what if a man DID care? I'm just trying to switch this to another point of view because the genes in that child share the fathers just as they do the mother.
Legally speaking, men have no rights.
 

Not_Me

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Humans, above all else, value human life (if not others' lives, at least their own human life).
It depends on what system of ethics you accept. Whether it's religious, metaphysical or economical is a matter of personal choice. This point is not debatable.

The only basis for debate is logical consistency within the system.

The point, btw, is that your analogy is inherently flawed--the point was that you had no ground to stand on with your argument, which is important to note.
Incorrect. My argument is sound.
 

Not_Me

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The value of human life is infinite and intrinsic. Valuable, regardless of its usefulness, and ends in themselves.
Prove it.

And even if you don't buy that, it doesn''t follow that it should be legislated as choice. If you buy choice, then you're saying it could be right, it could be wrong.
Then why don't we just legislate my values on everyone? I'd go for that.:)
 

sculpting

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if the father wants the baby and can take care of it alone he should be allowed to imo.

In theory I very much agree with this. I almost with there was a compensation alternative. If dad pays medical expenses, frees mom of all obligations, and then reimburses her for lost wages and a surrogate fee, the baby is his.

No, Peguy..the idea of having to change my life drastically for 9 months, and then having to go through the pain and agony of child birth after the months of discomfort, already scared me shitless. Like I said, I would've done that (I think), I would've gone for adoption, but..I still am very very very happy I was able to avoid it all together. And then I'm not even touching upon the emotional pain of having to give up your baby for adoption even though you know you cannot care for her and the wondering I imagine you do over the years of what has become of that child you carried inside of you for 9 months.

In practice there is a very real argument concerning the burden placed upon the woman in this situation. Carrying a baby takes a significant toll on you. It ages you, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. The last three months can be very draining and reduce your productivity substantially in the workplace or at school. My sister choose to have an abortion as her first pregnancy had her spend the last two months in bed. Being a single mom, working to support your family with no health insurance, she could not afford to take that risk of being without income.

Also-think about the social judgements. You are giant and pregnant at work for nine months, then come back without a baby. If I was a teen mom, I might get applause for giving the baby up. Making the money I do, the majority of my coworkers would assume I was a selfish non-motherly bitch if I gave up my baby.

Part of the problem is that when a man has sex, he will only ever experience the act as just sex. When a woman has sex, she has the burden of being infected by a potentially lethal parasite for nine months. It's kind of like saying if I gave you tape worm and tried to sue you for removing it. It sounds a little preposterous. Of course we're talking about a fetus, so there is a BIG difference between that and a tapeworm. Also, in your example, then women would have to fight the court about cases of rape. (The morning after pill is a bullshit argument, imo.)

Also to the thread in general: Compare a fetus to an egg. If you went to a chicken coop and grabbed 3 eggs and dropped two, would you feel worse for breaking a shell and seeing a red dot, or would you feel worse seeing an almost full baby chicken?

No matter how careful you are, babies happen. I took the Morning after pill once-ewww.... not fun. Many years later my toddler was an IUD baby. At 99.9% he was slightly unlikely. (I think he was a determined INTJ sperm). I considered not having the baby as my husband and I were broken up with no plans to reunite. For me-I could not make that choice. Perhaps already having carried a baby swayed my choice.

I did this chicken egg thing once. I dropped an egg that was about 16 days along. I looked it up later. The chickens belly was very bloated from the yolk-they absorb it slowly for nutrition. Its eyes bulged as they were very large in relation to its head. It lay there gasping for breath-it's lungs were not developed enough to breath. It just spasmed. I put it in a trash bag and hit it with a shovel several times.

Babies in the womb develop the capacity to feel pain at about 12-14 weeks. If we choose to allow termination of pregnancy at that stage onwards we should give the baby pain medication at the least-Vets do it when they spay pregnant dogs or cats. Conscious or not it is wrong to inflict pain on another creature if we can find an alternative.
 
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