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for those against abortion

nynesneg

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Abortionists would have a point if there weren't this little thing we call ADOPTION, which allows a person to not have to raise a child, and lets other people who want a child care for him/her. It's really that simple.

Unless it's a 12 year old girl who was brutally raped.. :sick:
Or family incest abuse...
 

Grayscale

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But the fetus isn't doing it alone. The mother still plays a vital role. A role that I believe should be her choice to continue or not.

Agreed, the parents do play a vital role that will continue through much of that child's early life. Generally we look down on parents who neglect this duty. What I am confused about is why this is so clear to us once it is a child and not when it is a fetus, because one leads to the other. I suspect it is because what we cant see/touch/hear becomes less significant to us. Yeah, it's always about US. Why should I mind abortions if I dont have to see what's really going on. If i saw a guy beating his kid violently in the supermarket, that would bother me though, so I should try and stop it.
 

Athenian200

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And your not?

That's right. :yes:

Well, at least you can tell how wrong your perspectives are. I'll give you credit for that. ;)

But seriously, your perspective boils down to nothing more than rape advocacy. You're basically reinforcing the validity of their reproductive strategy on some level by insisting their children be born and their genes spread.
 

Not_Me

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Abortionists would have a point if there weren't this little thing we call ADOPTION, which allows a person to not have to raise a child, and lets other people who want a child care for him/her. It's really that simple.

But you're still forcing a woman to rent out her body for 9 months against her will.

What is your feeling on forced liver donations? If someone will die without a piece of your liver and they chose you to be the donor, should you be forced to comply?
 

BlackCat

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Personally I'd say we all just need to ban modern housing and go back to living in caves.

God put those caves for a reason, dammit. You think it's natural for us to cut down trees (themselves living organisms!) and exploit them to build residential areas full of artificial housing where God clearly intended open fields and forests?

It ain't natural, if ya ask me.

People seem to have a jaded sense of what's natural. If God allowed it to be made, then it's natural, because we make everything from some element in nature. It's just that simple for me.
 

Poser

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Yeah, it's always about US. Why should I mind abortions if I dont have to see what's really going on. If i saw a guy beating his kid violently in the supermarket, that would bother me though, so I should try and stop it.

See, this is my big thing. Why should I get to decide that someone else has to go through something that will never happen to me? Something that does have risks and a certain amount of pain (emotional and physical).
 

Usehername

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But you're still forcing a woman to rent out her body for 9 months against her will.

What is your feeling on forced liver donations? If someone will die without a piece of your liver and they chose you to be the donor, should you be forced to comply?

This is a poor analogy. Try for a better one. The baby took no action, the parents who got pregnant took action.
 

Risen

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But you're still forcing a woman to rent out her body for 9 months against her will.

What is your feeling on forced liver donations? If someone will die without a piece of your liver and they chose you to be the donor, should you be forced to comply?

It is not me who killed them, it is their disease that killed them. When you abort a fetus, it is YOU/your doctor who is killing it. No apples and oranges comparisons please.

And in regards to someone being raped by their father or whatever, that's obviously the MOST extreme case you can think of, and you're trying to use that as the basis and justification for every other circumstance which doesn't work.

Fine, make abortion a punishable act save for in extreme circumstances such as rape. Otherwise, make people live with their choices for 9 months. I really don't care, this whole subject is lacking in substance.
 

nynesneg

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This is a poor analogy. Try for a better one. The baby took no action, the parents who got pregnant took action.

LDS people would argue otherwise. According to them, the spirit baby chose a host and came down from heaven and was happy to be given a life here.


No offense anyone, merely pointing out a different viewpoint.
 

Grayscale

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See, this is my big thing. Why should I get to decide that someone else has to go through something that will never happen to me? Something that does have risks and a certain amount of pain (emotional and physical).

Why must a judge weigh out the defendant and the prosecutor's position equally?


I think this argument has tired my brain out. I appreciate all of you suffering my moral inflexibility long enough to have this discussion with me :hi:
 

ayoitsStepho

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That's right. :yes:

Well, at least you can tell how wrong your perspectives are. I'll give you credit for that. ;)

Actually I believe 100% in my perspectives. Just because I know how I may look to others doesnt mean thats how I see myself. I'm pretty confident in my oppinions, just as you are.
 

Usehername

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Ok. If you prefer, suppose the hospital staff picked your name out of a hat.

Nope. You're still placing agency on an outside source. The only action was taken by the parents--you need an analogy where the people who took action are not responsible for the consequences of that action.
 

simulatedworld

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They probably wouldn't make good servants. They're probably more likely to be criminals or welfare recipients. It's not like abortionists are going into happy homes and snatching children from loving families.

Then again, perhaps abortion will be partially responsible for failure of entitlement programs (like social security) in the future, since there won't be enough young people to pay for the old.

I want a freaking cost/benefit analysis!

See? You've clearly placed benefit to society above individual civil liberties. On what grounds?
 

Not_Me

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It is not me who killed them, it is their disease that killed them. When you abort a fetus, it is YOU/your doctor who is killing it. No apples and oranges comparisons please.
In both cases, it's some unanticipated event which puts the host/donor in an unwanted position.
 

Risen

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In both cases, it's some unanticipated event which puts the host/donor in an unwanted position.

And so you make decisions, and you live with the consequences. The purpose behind regulating abortion would be to add consequences to effect people's decision making. No free will is taken, you just simply have more incentive to act a certain way.
 

Not_Me

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Nope. You're still placing agency on an outside source. The only action was taken by the parents--you need an analogy where the people who took action are not responsible for the consequences of that action.

So you're asserting that having sex obligates the woman to carry an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy to full term? This is a very contentious point.
 

simulatedworld

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It is not beneficial to the pro-abortion argument to approach this from the perspective of "rights"... that's what rights are, a choice. But we limit what choices can be made on the basis of how they affect others. That is why children are not allowed to drive cars, but when they are 16 they can earn that right. They still have to follow the rules of the road. Likewise, we have a choice to have sex, but I dont see why that makes us exempt from the responsibilities that come with it.

That's like saying little kids who fall into wells shouldn't be rescued because they shouldn't have been playing near the well in the first place. Oh, and drug overdoses? Nah, no need to revive them--they shouldn't have been doing drugs in the first place! Heart attack from high cholesterol? Sucks for you--it's not society's problem that you eat too many double cheeseburgers!

Nature endows teenagers with powerful and confusing sexual feelings long before it equips them with the gift of perfect foresight. Dooming a young person to the extraordinary pressure of parenthood because s/he made an impulsive mistake is pretty questionable, imo.
 

Lateralus

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See? You've clearly placed benefit to society above individual civil liberties. On what grounds?
When you said "always", I assumed you were talking about all issues, not just this one. I don't "always" place the benefit to society above individual civil liberties. I do so on this particular issue because there is no moral consensus.
 
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