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for those against abortion

simulatedworld

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No, that's why a cost/benefit analysis should be performed to see if abortion benefits society. My intuition tells me that abortion probably does benefit society, but I don't know that for sure.

On a broader topic, why should benefit to society always be placed as a higher value than individual freedom? Doesn't this run into a number of clear problems with utilitarianism?
 

Athenian200

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We all know where people stand on the extreme positions by now.

But I'm curious. What do people think about the compromise position, allowing abortion in the case of rape, but not for consentual intercourse?
 

Lateralus

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On a broader topic, why should benefit to society always be placed as a higher value than individual freedom? Doesn't this run into a number of clear problems with utilitarianism?
Who says that it is? And who says those are necessarily at odds with each other?

P.S. I'm pretty utilitarian when it comes to crime and punishment.
 

Not_Me

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I really am not sure how else to explain this... as soon as conception occurs, it is my belief that another human life must be taken into account, so at that point intervention is essentially murder.
Didn't we already debate this point? Many unanswered objections were levied against this conclusion.
 

Grayscale

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So you're saying all forms of hormonal birth control (ie the pill, shot, iud, patch) are unethical because all the necessary components are inside the woman together (sperm+egg), the environment is just altered so they die?

Impressive, first guy I've met who actually likes condoms.

Hmm, not quite. Some of these things prevent the creation of human life, others destroy it once it has already started.

Yes grayscale we're well aware of how the birds and the bees work and the fact that sex risks pregnancy, thanks.

Sixth grade sex ed lessons aside, though, we're discussing whether or not people have the right to force other people to have babies once a pregnancy has occurred.

Your position suggests implicitly that according to some arbitrary moral directive, sex should only happen for procreation. Why should having sex for recreation constitute a binding agreement to bear a child if neither participant wants one? I don't like the implication that I'm morally in the wrong if I'm having sex without the desire to produce offspring.

My argument is that we know the risks but do not want to accept them when they occur.

I wonder if any of them have ever heard of modern medicine, contact lenses, polyester, etc.

If it's your belief that unnatural = bad, then fine, but if you want to legislate that belief you need something more substantial than just your personal feeling that it's unnatural. You're talking about restricting other people's rights here!

If someone has bad eyesight is that a result of an educated choice? Guess I will have to hop up on the next lady I see bend over, 'cause I just can't control myself!

The key to understanding morality is intentions, until you are willing to hold people accountable to them then it will not make sense to you.
 

Not_Me

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But I'm curious. What do people think about the compromise position, allowing abortion in the case of rape, but not for consentual intercourse?

Absolutely not. This would unduly restrict a woman's right to control the use of her own body in all but a small minority of the cases.
 

simulatedworld

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Hmm, not quite. Some of these things prevent the creation of human life, others destroy it once it has already started.



My argument is that we know the risks but do not want to accept them when they occur.

Yeah, but we don't have to. We have abortion, and the burden of proof is on you to show why you should be allowed to tell others they're not allowed to have one.


Who says that it is? And who says those are necessarily at odds with each other?

P.S. I'm pretty utilitarian when it comes to crime and punishment.

Defining abortion as a crime is arbitrary in the first place. Your statement that evaluation of abortion should be contingent upon its overall benefit to society suggests that you believe this to be of more importance than individual civil liberties, at least in the case of abortion. In this case the two values are, unfortunately, at odds with each other.
 

nynesneg

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grayscale said:
as soon as conception occurs, it is my belief that another human life must be taken into account, so at that point intervention is essentially murder.

The progestin (present in birth control pills) works to:
- ...hinder the movement of sperm
- inhibit the egg's ability to travel...
- alter the uterine lining so a fertilized egg will likely not be able to implant into the uterine wall.
(A fertilized egg would then be discharged...)

Cough.
 

Lateralus

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Absolutely not. This would unduly restrict a woman's right to control the use of her own body in all but a small minority of the cases.
Pfft, who cares? I only care about how this effects ME. And I'm for abortion because I'd rather not have a bunch of unwanted kids running around.
 

Grayscale

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Yeah, but we don't have to. We have abortion, and the burden of proof is on you to show why you should be allowed to tell others they're not allowed to have one.

The crux of the issue is definition of human life, because once someone is an adult people can recognize it is wrong to kill them if they haven't done anything. If you had not murdered them, they would still be alive. Alone, egg and sperm do not eventually create human life, it is by our choice to have sex that they are. Once they have been, the result is human life in essential form because, like the innocent adult, if you do not do anything they will remain alive and thus should receive the same right.

Basically, in my opinion, it comes down to taking responsibility for our ability to create human life. In my opinion, abortion is avoiding this responsibility by blurring the lines around the process of creating life. If it's so obvious, and we all know how it works, why are we even trying to say an embryo is not human? That's ridiculous to me. No, it doesnt look like a child or adult, it will one day though. If it makes it any easier, reflect personally on the fact that you were once such a meaningless clump of cells.

It is not beneficial to the pro-abortion argument to approach this from the perspective of "rights"... that's what rights are, a choice. But we limit what choices can be made on the basis of how they affect others. That is why children are not allowed to drive cars, but when they are 16 they can earn that right. They still have to follow the rules of the road. Likewise, we have a choice to have sex, but I dont see why that makes us exempt from the responsibilities that come with it.
 

Risen

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No, that's why a cost/benefit analysis should be performed to see if abortion benefits society. My intuition tells me that abortion probably does benefit society, but I don't know that for sure.

Yea, that's not in support of personal freedoms and choice. That is collectivism in the extreme. "Do it because it benefits society." But that is the basic truth of how the world works. SOMEBODY is going to make that judgment call based on whatever criteria they want, and it is either society as a whole that decides what they value (based upon very basic, primal principles of "like and dislike", common appraisals for most human beings) and what direction they want, or it is a minority of the population with power and influence over the direction of society that makes that decision and sets the trend. Society/the collective doesn't "decide' anything, it just reacts unintelligent, like a reflex that causes your arm to move away from a hot stove. Powerful thinking individuals provide intelligent direction for the rest of society. This dovetails nicely with my earlier points on controlling society, and that other thread about social control.

Whether people like to think it or not, the individual is controlled and influenced by everyone else in society, and it is those with enough ability to think outside of it who raise themselves above the fray, and exercise influence as an individual upon the collective (i.e. politicians, corporate execs, bankers). The collective follows because the individuals it is comprised of don't have the will, the knowledge, or the ability to truly rise above collective intelligence and maintain their individual subsistence by impressing their view of reality upon the population at large. That is the social order of man.

As it applies to abortion, it means that we can continue to argue and argue amongst ourselves about whether its good or bad, right or wrong, until those with power set the standard once and for all. There have been many groups in society who have succeeded in asserting that abortion is good and happy, but those groups haven't succeeded in influencing enough of the population. Once a critical mass of people are under the influence of such beliefs, the debate will meet a quiet demise. That will happen if someone comes and grants the population a new "pragmatic" perspective on the issue, by looking at the overall economic benefits (or not) to society, as Lat suggested.
 

ayoitsStepho

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We all know where people stand on the extreme positions by now.

But I'm curious. What do people think about the compromise position, allowing abortion in the case of rape, but not for consentual intercourse?

See, I honestly don't know about the case of rape. I understand the side of people saying that they should atleast get to abort. I can deff see that reasoning. Eh, but still I can't agree with it. I know it makes me seem like a horrible person, I just cant. I could open up another whole can of worms here, but I wont unless someone wants to talk about it privatley.
 

Poser

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Alone, egg and sperm do not eventually create human life, it is by our choice to have sex that they are. Once they have been, the result is human life in essential form because, like the innocent adult, if you do not do anything they will remain alive and thus should receive the same right.

Basically, in my opinion, it comes down to taking responsibility for our ability to create human life.

But the fetus isn't doing it alone. The mother still plays a vital role. A role that I believe should be her choice to continue or not.
 

Lateralus

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What if they make good servants?
They probably wouldn't make good servants. They're probably more likely to be criminals or welfare recipients. It's not like abortionists are going into happy homes and snatching children from loving families.

Then again, perhaps abortion will be partially responsible for failure of entitlement programs (like social security) in the future, since there won't be enough young people to pay for the old.

I want a freaking cost/benefit analysis!
 

Risen

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See, I honestly don't know about the case of rape. I understand the side of people saying that they should atleast get to abort. I can deff see that reasoning. Eh, but still I can't agree with it. I know it makes me seem like a horrible person, I just cant. I could open up another whole can of worms here, but I wont unless someone wants to talk about it privatley.

Abortionists would have a point if there weren't this little thing we call ADOPTION, which allows a person to not have to raise a child, and lets other people who want a child care for him/her. It's really that simple.
 

ayoitsStepho

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Abortionists would have a point if there weren't this little thing we call ADOPTION, which allows a person to not have to raise a child, and lets other people who want a child care for him/her. It's really that simple.

Dog gone it, you stole the words out of my mouth. Pfft, meanie :newwink:
 

Athenian200

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I know it makes me seem like a horrible person.

Yes, it does. That's because you ARE. :dont:

Abortionists would have a point if there weren't this little thing we call ADOPTION, which allows a person to not have to raise a child, and lets other people who want a child care for him/her. It's really that simple.

I don't think it's *raising* the child that they're trying to avoid...

Well, that does it. I have absolutely no respect left for either of you, whatsoever. You have *no* sense of justice according to my reckoning, and should be severely punished.
 
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