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  1. #631
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile The Apology and the Telephone

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Thanks for the evidence you've given, but still this argument proves insufficient to the topic at hand. One must consider intent when making moral judgments.
    I have no more interest in arguing than I have in flying.

    Argument is a function of print, but here we are writing and reading electronic text.

    And electronic text is more suited to conversation than argument.

    Of course there is the Catholic tradition of Apologetics based on print and evidence and reason and argument.

    But there is no need to apologise to me, mate. I'm here for electronic conversation. I left Catholic Apologetics a long time ago.

    The invention of the printing press in 1440 gave birth to Catholic Apologetics and the invention of the telephone gave birth to conversation.

    So - no need to apologise - there is no need to justify your existence, just get on the blower and have a word with me.

  2. #632
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I have no more interest in arguing than I have in flying.

    Argument is a function of print, but here we are writing and reading electronic text.

    And electronic text is more suited to conversation than argument.

    Of course there is the Catholic tradition of Apologetics based on print and evidence and reason and argument.

    But there is no need to apologise to me, mate. I'm here for electronic conversation. I left Catholic Apologetics a long time ago.

    The invention of the printing press in 1440 gave birth to Catholic Apologetics and the invention of the telephone gave birth to conversation.

    So - no need to apologise - there is no need to justify your existence, just get on the blower and have a word with me.
    I'm a little disappointed that the RCC has to be involved with our ethical discussion.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #633
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Smile The Human Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    I'm a little disappointed that the RCC has to be involved with our ethical discussion.
    Well, the Catholics do have a reasoned argument against abortion based on evidence. And it seems to me that this is the argument you are quoting.

    However two things have happened. First biology has shown us that spontaneous abortion is normal and prolific in nature. And as we are part of nature, spontaneous abortion is natural and spontaneous in homo sapiens.

    And if the human soul is created by God at the moment of conception, why are not all these spontaneous abortions baptised by the Church. And in fact not one spontaneous abortion is baptised by the Church. So they don't even believe their own doctrine that the human soul is created at the moment of conception, otherwise they would be baptising all these spontaneous abortions to save them from original sin.

    The second thing that has happened is that the telephone and the electronic media have been recently invented and so made argument and Apologetics, moot.

    Apologetics and argument are now only used by the neurotic as a defence against learning to relate to their fellow human beings.

    Argument is now simply a psychological defence against feeling and emotion. And in particular argument is simply a defence against sharing feeling and emotion.

    To cure children of their neurosis, we talk to them on the telephone.

    And this works well with adults as well. So if you give me your telephone number, I will ring you and talk with you. In this way you may leave the ugliness of Catholic Apologetics and join the human conversation.

  4. #634
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Well, the Catholics do have a reasoned argument against abortion based on evidence. And it seems to me that this is the argument you are quoting.

    However two things have happened. First biology has shown us that spontaneous abortion is normal and prolific in nature. And as we are part of nature, spontaneous abortion is natural and spontaneous in homo sapiens.

    And if the human soul is created by God at the moment of conception, why are not all these spontaneous abortions baptised by the Church. And in fact not one spontaneous abortion is baptised by the Church. So they don't even believe their own doctrine that the human soul is created at the moment of conception, otherwise they would be baptising all these spontaneous abortions to save them from original sin.

    The second thing that has happened is that the telephone and the electronic media have been recently invented and so made argument and Apologetics, moot.

    Apologetics and argument are now only used by the neurotic as a defence against learning to relate to their fellow human beings.

    Argument is now simply a psychological defence against feeling and emotion. And in particular argument is simply a defence against sharing feeling and emotion.

    To cure children of their neurosis, we talk to them on the telephone.

    And this works well with adults as well. So if you give me your telephone number, I will ring you and talk with you. In this way you may leave the ugliness of Catholic Apologetics and join the human conversation.
    Hurricanes happen naturally and devestate. There is now work on tech that aims to influence the flow direction of hurricanes. By your words, we could use that technology to kill people without moral scruples.

    Nature doesn't matter here, it's intent.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  5. #635
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Hurricanes happen naturally and devestate. There is now work on tech that aims to influence the flow direction of hurricanes. By your words, we could use that technology to kill people without moral scruples.
    How wonderfully absurd.

    But the price of such absurdity is being out of touch with reality.

  6. #636
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Can someone sum up the pro arguments? I would like to rebut them altogether.

  7. #637
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Can someone sum up the pro arguments? I would like to rebut them altogether.
    You want to butt them together? Are you making some kind of cabinet of arguments?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #638
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    I see abortions as the new infant mortality rate in developed countries (except it's wanted, so it is likely that it will challenge someone's morality and such), since infant mortality rates have pretty much are slim to none these days. Like someone said before, we're reproducing at an alarming rate, and the earth can't possibly support another 20 billion or so in the future.

    The fall of humanity due to overpopulation seems much more catastrophic than a few thousand abortions, but that's just me.

  9. #639
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
    You want to butt them together? Are you making some kind of cabinet of arguments?
    Rebuttal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  10. #640
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildCard View Post
    I stand against abortion. The only time that it should be used is either in cases of incest and/or rape in young girls or the the risk is too high for either the mother, child, or both.
    I never understood this argument, as it seems the "pro-lifers" making this argument suddenly switch it up and start considering the woman's perspective over the fetus, while for the rest of their argument it is about the fetus over the woman

    So, "pro-lifers" aka, pro-life-of-potential-human, aka, pro-fetus:


    Why are the circumstances of the conception used to determine if a fetus has a "right to live"?

    What if a child is born from rape and/or incest, should this child be ordered to die because it was born out of rape or incest while those children born from a "loving coupling" be allowed to live? How is that fair?

    Also, if you make exceptions for certain "cases"/types of fetus, what is your reasoning for not granting the same actions to the other fetuses?

    You esentially then are putting value on a fetus according to its conception, and saying that certain fetus are more worthy of "living" than another.

    I.e., that any children born of rape or incest are not of value as other children and that they should have been aborted. This kind of thinking seems highly unjust. Just sayin'.

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