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  1. #611
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    This raises the interesting question -

    Would it be as desirable to reduce the number of spontaneous abortions?
    No, for reasons that have already been discussed. A spontaneous abortion frequently happens when the fetus is not viable. Most people who oppose abortion consider themselves religious, and believe in an afterlife in the presence of God. Any soul already associated with a miscarried fetus would then return to its creator; not such a bad fate after all.

    Tawanda: was your question directed at me? I do not consider a woman who aborts an unviable fetus to be a murder in any circumstance. If the fetus is viable in terms of size/age, the threshold is higher. Still, pregnancy is a singular state. Nowhere else does one human place such constant, untransferrable, and unique demands on another. I place high value, then, on the self-determination of the "host being".

  2. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My point exactly. The use of this term is merely an attempt by religious fundamentalists to frame the debate in a way that will make them look good and their opponents evil. This ignores the complexity of the issue.
    And what about those who use the term "pro-Choice"? I mean "Birth Control League" changed its named to "Planned Parenthood" as well.

  3. #613
    ¡MI TORTA! Amethyst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post

    Tawanda: was your question directed at me? I do not consider a woman who aborts an unviable fetus to be a murder in any circumstance. If the fetus is viable in terms of size/age, the threshold is higher. Still, pregnancy is a singular state. Nowhere else does one human place such constant, untransferrable, and unique demands on another. I place high value, then, on the self-determination of the "host being".
    It was more directed to the OP, but I'd like to hear several opinions on this.

    Apparently the Catholic Church doesn't agree.
    Nun Excommunicated For Allowing Abortion : NPR

    I feel like they see it more as mother<potential child (not saying all Catholics do, just those with high power in the Church for the most part).

  4. #614
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Any soul already associated with a miscarried fetus would then return to its creator; not such a bad fate after all.
    For a thousand years we were told the soul of a miscarried fetus or a spontaneous abortion would go to Limbo for all eternity.

    But just recently we were told that Limbo had been abolished and I want to know what happened to all those little babies!

  5. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    For a thousand years we were told the soul of a miscarried fetus or a spontaneous abortion would go to Limbo for all eternity.

    But just recently we were told that Limbo had been abolished and I want to know what happened to all those little babies!
    They went here.

  6. #616
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tawanda View Post
    It was more directed to the OP, but I'd like to hear several opinions on this.

    Apparently the Catholic Church doesn't agree.
    Nun Excommunicated For Allowing Abortion : NPR

    I feel like they see it more as mother<potential child (not saying all Catholics do, just those with high power in the Church for the most part).
    This got a lot of press. Poorly done press. This article is actually one of the better ones. The RCC teaches that it's immoral to kill an innocent to save another person-the ends don't justify the means. That goes for any situation, in any relationship. In war a lot people are against passivity to collateral damage; in pregnancy, this understanding is lost.

    Unlike most of the press first portrayed the incident, the bishop did not excommunicate the nun. Under the canon, anyone who willfully commits abortion is automatically excommunicated when the act is done. The excommunication doesn't require an active measure from any Church figure.
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  7. #617
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    And what about those who use the term "pro-Choice"? I mean "Birth Control League" changed its named to "Planned Parenthood" as well.
    It depends on what they are really doing. If all they advocate is birth control, then "Birth control league" is most descriptive. If they expand to include prenatal care, abortion, even infertility treatments, then "Planned parenthood" is more descriptive, since their work addresses all aspects of planning one's reproductive life, whether that includes many children or none at all. My experience of PP is limited, but in some areas where I have lived, women can get basic ob/gyn services at PP clinics, and not just birth control or abortion.

    When I hear "pro-choice", I think more of political advocacy than the direct provision of services (PP does both). There may be a better way to express the political and legal goal of ensuring reproductive issues are left to individual choice rather than government directive. More accurate terminology on both sides might allow the debate to focus on facts rather than image or spin, but then ideologues on both side seem to depend on this not happening.

  8. #618
    Senior Member WildCard's Avatar
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    I stand against abortion. The only time that it should be used is either in cases of incest and/or rape in young girls or the the risk is too high for either the mother, child, or both.

    For me, if you choose to have sex, you are also choosing the consequences. STD's and children just happen to be those consequences. I don't think a hooker should be allowed to have an abortion just because she doesn't want it.

    And to be honest, if more people agreed with abortion, just how many of us would even be here? I know if my mother had been like most of the teenage mothers now days, I wouldn't be sitting here debating this topic.
    Anything that you haven't fought for isn't going to be appreciated. It takes blood, sweat, and a large amount of tears before you appreciate what you have.

  9. #619
    The Duchess of Oddity Queen Kat's Avatar
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    Is it a bad thing to not have an opinion on this?
    I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was obviously on. I used to fly myself and I said, "There's one terrible pilot."
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  10. #620
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildCard View Post
    And to be honest, if more people agreed with abortion, just how many of us would even be here? I know if my mother had been like most of the teenage mothers now days, I wouldn't be sitting here debating this topic.
    those of us with mothers who wanted us would still be here. Forcing women to keep children in an environment where the mother is unwilling or unable to care for it properly will not end well for the child.

    My parents didn't believe in abortion and wanted kids, and I still don't think they should have had children for financial and personality reasons.

    Guess what, if we hadn't been born we wouldn't be around to get bummed about not being born. lots of things could have resulted in us not being born, if you want to get all philosophical about it.

    By the way, consequences suck but they can be helped by living in a civilized society. Back in the day if you slipped and broke your leg, you'd die because you couldn't hunt. Now we've developed the technology to set broken bones so the consequences are less dire. If you argue that abortion should be illegal because children are a natural consequence, you should also be forbidden from seeking medical treatment, since gangrene should be a natural result of being dumb enough to get your leg crushed.

    Sure is easy to judge when you're not in that position, huh?
    -end of thread-

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