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  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Though my tongue is firmly placed in my cheek, I make convincing, sound arguments. Until the obvious agenda of the pro-lifer is made clear (the surrender of everyone's right to their bodies and perspective of such to that of the pro-lifer's belief system) I will resort to attacking the supposed fundamentals of their positions.
    What you seem to be forgetting is that if a fetus is a human, then abortion is murder. At that point, the issue becomes a matter of legality--the fetus represented by state prosecution and the mother as the defendant. What the pro-abortion argument suggests, essentially, is that there is no case in the first place because a fetus is not human and doesn't earn this right. The only time we legally sanction murder is for criminals who earn the death penalty.

    Unless you are saying that a fetus is undeniably not a human, or that if it were that it is fit for sanctioned execution for "crimes against the womb" then I'm afraid the pro-abortion argument is not sound at all. What necessitates this discussion is the distinct possibility that a fetus is human in nature and thus deserves an unalienable right to life.

    Maybe the judicial system doesn't fall within your beliefs, though.

  2. #522
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    [QUOTE=Lateralus;895403]It can't be fixed, at least not without drastic government intervention into peoples' personal lives.


    Why would we want to stop women from choosing abortion?


    What's wrong with not giving men any say in the matter, but still trying to force them to pay?[/QUOTE]

    If you don't think abortion is something that needs to be stopped, than what I'm saying has nothing to do with you. My point was that for all the people that proclaim abortion is so wrong and should be stopped, they need to be looking at the hows and whys it happens.

    IMO, theres nothing wrong with not giving men or women the option of paying child support after it is ordered. The problem comes in when someone doesn't want to bad enough that they don't. The states child support systems are screwy. 2.5 billion is owed in Virginia child support cases right now...something has to change. This is mainly a male issue, but we can keep throwing up smoke screens of why it is not.

  3. #523
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    That is what I'm arguing. However, you claim this lens can be lived in a just manner. If prioritizing human interests is a fundamental for anthropocentrism, then where is the justice for other species?
    You haven't made any sort of argument here. Also, justice does not necessitate equal treatment. It just necessitates just treatment.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Though my tongue is firmly placed in my cheek, I make convincing, sound arguments.
    No actually you're not.

  5. #525
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Sure, we should respect others beliefs. But we are dealing here with issues that concerns elementary issues of human life; and what should take precedence in law - the good or one's rights. You really can't argue rights takes precedence over moral good, since rights themselves are based upon a conception of a moral good.
    Whether intrinsically or consequentially, rights will generally take precedence over conflicting moral or social goods (this precedence can be proportional rather than dichotomous). Of course, in the case of abortion the rights of two separate vessels of human life are mutually opposed, so we're right back where we started....

    I'm not really inclined to get into yet another abortion debate, but on a personal level: I lean strongly toward a "pro-life" position, and the moment I learned that abortion for the sake of convenience was not only legal but also very common was the moment that I lost any hope for the inherent "goodness" of human nature (I view human nature as essentially "neutral", albeit with the darker aspects quicker and easier to habituate). I don't lack the capacity to understand the opposing viewpoint, though, and certainly don't think that people who are "pro-choice" are inherently bad people-the OP needs to work on that.

  6. #526
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    the moment I learned that abortion for the sake of convenience was not only legal but also very common was the moment that I lost any hope for the inherent "goodness" of human nature (I view human nature as essentially "neutral", albeit with the darker aspects quicker and easier to habituate). I don't lack the capacity to understand the opposing viewpoint, though, and certainly don't think that people who are "pro-choice" are inherently bad people-the OP needs to work on that.
    Unfortunately it's not practiced enough to wean millions of sucklings off of the teats of social welfare. Abortion has been around for quite some time because it serves a worthy purpose. It ought to be used less, since many forms of birth control are available, but I'd rather have legal, common abortions than have dead babies in my dumpster or mothers throwing their babies off of bridges or irresponsible mothers and their soon-to-be prison bound children further screwing the rest of us out of a decent quality of life.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaybeLogic View Post
    Unfortunately it's not practiced enough to wean millions of sucklings off of the teats of social welfare. Abortion has been around for quite some time because it serves a worthy purpose. It ought to be used less, since many forms of birth control are available, but I'd rather have legal, common abortions than have dead babies in my dumpster or mothers throwing their babies off of bridges or irresponsible mothers and their soon-to-be prison bound children further screwing the rest of us out of a decent quality of life.
    Again, another issue child support would fix. In most states, if a very minimal amount of child support is received they are automatically disqualified from welfare programs.

  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaybeLogic View Post
    Abortion has been around for quite some time because it serves a worthy purpose.
    Yes, but the same is true of a great many things we don't permit... assault and battery, for example.

  9. #529
    Senior Member InfiniteIntrigue's Avatar
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    I'm against one person taking another's life in general.
    I don't like abortion.
    I don't like the death penalty.
    genocide is reprehensible.
    and war can be pretty upsetting.

    I feel anyone who commits or causes a murder should be punished
    except in the case of justifiable homicide.

    If I was to choose between killing a convicted murder and an innocent baby/fetus/whatever you wish to call it. I'd kill the murderer.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves,
    who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad
    memories and allow themselves to be provoked this
    easily -- weak people, in other words -- they stand no chance."
    -Severus Snape

  10. #530
    Member IntrovertedThinker's Avatar
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    Aren't you all assuming abortion is murder in the first place?
    Perhaps the first place to start is there, because assumptions are the worst impediment imaginable for any undertaking of understanding.

    Create a logical discussion centered around the critical analysis of this assumption, or take a few months to critical analyze it individually, then come back here and post your findings.

    "I have trouble seeing someone who agrees with abortion as anything but a killer"...

    It's called logic. Learn to use it, please.

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