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  1. #511
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    "Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
    --GK Chesterton
    And differ even more enormously about what reasons they have to excuse those evils.

  2. #512
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tewt View Post
    What I find interesting is that many people will agree that abortion is "wrong" but will not address the conditions that make abortion a preferable choice for some women.

    There are real problems with states child support systems. In Virginia alone, 2.5 billion is owed to child support cases. And this is not even counting women who have never filed for child support. This is nothing new, everyone has heard horror stories about child support....BUT who is doing anything about it? I hear more about men getting sucked dry by child support and how that is so wrong, but no real answers on how to fix any of it. And of course when I hear the amount they are paying in child support and it is no where near close to 50% of a childs living expenses, leaving me to think that this again is another case of women do right by all costs but men can do whatever they want without consequences. I'll be honest, it leaves me scratching my head when so many men proclaim abortion is murder and wrong....but aren't as outraged over the children that are here and are not being taken care of.

    If eliminating the need for abortion is the goal, the game plan needs to start changing on a basic level.
    Should we start sending men who skip out on child support to prison? I wouldn't necessarily be against that, but with our already overcrowded prisons, where would we put them and how would we pay for it?

    Would you say that this situation is proof that men are jerks? Or is it an indictment of our society? I lean toward the latter. Liberalism has its costs.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Should we start sending men who skip out on child support to prison? I wouldn't necessarily be against that, but with our already overcrowded prisons, where would we put them and how would we pay for it?

    Would you say that this situation is proof that men are jerks? Or is it an indictment of our society? I lean toward the latter. Liberalism has its costs.
    We already do, in some states. I'm not sure what the right approach is. I do think its something that needs to be addressed seriously and talked about though. I think mens (again, some men) attitude toward child support would change drastically if they were better informed. I think with that attitude change it would be hard to sit by and watch your buddy not pay child support and tolerate it, cause you know its really "bitch support" anyway. I think men have an awful lot of power to change attitudes amongst themselves and in effect, change how much abortion is needed.

    Again, I don't know what the answer is. I do know that sitting by and ignoring a huge issue that contributes to women choosing abortion isn't the answer. I don't think its proof that men are jerks at all. I think its proof that the circular thinking that women are responsible for all consequences of sex and they better act right...is alive and kicking still. This is an issue men can start to take responsibility for, instead of saying what can we do about it anyway?

  4. #514
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tewt View Post
    I think with that attitude change it would be hard to sit by and watch your buddy not pay child support and tolerate it, cause you know its really "bitch support" anyway. I think men have an awful lot of power to change attitudes amongst themselves and in effect, change how much abortion is needed.
    hypothetically,
    If an employed man took custody of the kids...and the woman was employed...would she send money to the man?

  5. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    hypothetically,
    If an employed man took custody of the kids...and the woman was employed...would she send money to the man?
    Do you mean would she send it on her own? Or wait until the child support agency started collecting directly from her employer? I don't really understand what you're asking. If it is should she pay child support at all? Yes, most definitely. Except then we start going into the whys and hows a woman is the NCP.

    Actually, this is a prime example of what I was talking about. Instead of actually discussing problems directly relating to men and paying child support...we don't. We go into hypotheticals if the woman was the NCP and yadda yadda yadda. The facts are women are the custodial parent 84% of the time. By lawyers and our societies view in general, women are told not to rely on child support because if someone really doesn't want to pay it -- they won't and then where will you be? This is a direct issue relating to why some women chose abortion. We can continue to demonize those women who chose abortion or start having some discussion on why it is chosen. And how all parties contribute to these choices and what we can do to change it.

    When I've actually seen child support issues talked about, it goes directly to the man didn't have a choice whether to have a child or not. That is why they don't pay or don't want to pay. How do we fix this? How do we stop women from choosing abortion? How do we give men a choice in child support but still give women the support they need to raise a child? How exactly does this work?

  6. #516
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'm not Acknowledging and ignoring your persistent "OMG I HEART SOCIAL PROGRAMZ" because I AGREE with them as well. Thus, there's nothing to argue or discuss. In case you didn't pick up on that.

    I really don't wanna go deleting all my posts just to avoid confrontation, so how about you kindly stop replying to me like I requested a post ago? Is the last word really that important to you? If it is, you can have it. I won't reply to this one either. I'm not ending my discussion in the thread, just with you Take Five.

    I read a funny piece of literature on some "Rules of Working in Washington" the other day.
    One of them was :
    "When you're on the losing side of a discussion, walk out of the meeting."

    I guess you mastered that.


    I think the question of abortion has a lot to do with the question of when personhood begins. There is perhaps more widespread agreement that persons should not be killed, the problem for a lot of people seems to be deciding what a person is.

  7. #517
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tewt View Post
    When I've actually seen child support issues talked about, it goes directly to the man didn't have a choice whether to have a child or not. That is why they don't pay or don't want to pay. How do we fix this?
    It can't be fixed, at least not without drastic government intervention into peoples' personal lives.

    How do we stop women from choosing abortion?
    Why would we want to stop women from choosing abortion?

    How do we give men a choice in child support but still give women the support they need to raise a child? How exactly does this work?
    What's wrong with not giving men any say in the matter, but still trying to force them to pay?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #518
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I don't quite see your point here. Most humans, regardless of religion, are athropocentric (which is a lens of life that can be lived in a just and humane manner). Shouldn't you be arguing about why we should not live with this mindset since you are in the distinct minority?
    That is what I'm arguing. However, you claim this lens can be lived in a just manner. If prioritizing human interests is a fundamental for anthropocentrism, then where is the justice for other species?

    However, if most humans are indeed stuck in an anthropocentric wordview, then, as previously mentioned, aren't there plenty of suffering human beings that are already alive that need tending to? Tomorrow, another 40k people will have died of preventable diseases. This rate far exceeds abortion rates. The pro-lifers, in my opinion, are stuck on the fundamental that human life should be granted freedom to live, and they put fetuses under this idyllic umbrella.

    This being said, it is of my opinion that pro-choicers should not focus on their agenda of prioritizing fetuses. Not only do plenty of people not agree with their defining of fetuses as an actual human lifeform worth protecting, but setting limits on abortion should not be a consideration until the rest of the world's issues with human suffering and progress on basic human rights is dealt with.

    Oh, and if pro-lifers believe this to be a religious issue, they should be praying to God quite fervently, demanding to know why He chooses to put to death all these unborn children (see: 30% miscarriage rate).
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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    = Ne > Ni > Fi > Te > Se > Fe > Si INTP (I/PNT) 5w4

  9. #519
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    That is what I'm arguing. However, you claim this lens can be lived in a just manner. If prioritizing human interests is a fundamental for anthropocentrism, then where is the justice for other species?

    However, if most humans are indeed stuck in an anthropocentric wordview, then, as previously mentioned, aren't there plenty of suffering human beings that are already alive that need tending to? Tomorrow, another 40k people will have died of preventable diseases. This rate far exceeds abortion rates. The pro-lifers, in my opinion, are stuck on the fundamental that human life should be granted freedom to live, and they put fetuses under this idyllic umbrella.

    This being said, it is of my opinion that pro-choicers should not focus on their agenda of prioritizing fetuses. Not only do plenty of people not agree with their defining of fetuses as an actual human lifeform worth protecting, but setting limits on abortion should not be a consideration until the rest of the world's issues with human suffering and progress on basic human rights is dealt with.

    Oh, and if pro-lifers believe this to be a religious issues, they should be praying to God quite fervently, demanding to know why He chooses to put to death all these unborn children (see: 30% miscarriage rate).
    Are you serious?

  10. #520
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Are you serious?
    Though my tongue is firmly placed in my cheek, I make convincing, sound arguments. Until the obvious agenda of the pro-lifer is made clear (the surrender of everyone's right to their bodies and perspective of such to that of the pro-lifer's belief system) I will resort to attacking the supposed fundamentals of their positions.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
    Ti
    = Ne > Ni > Fi > Te > Se > Fe > Si INTP (I/PNT) 5w4

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