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  1. #501
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    I find this discussion to be rather speciesist. Shall I dig myself a grave by admitting that I think it's rather anthropocentric to value the life of about a million fetuses killed annually due to abortions in America, and not blink an eye at the 27 million animals raised and also killed prematurely every day, purely to feed Americans?
    Religious values are by nature anthropocentric.

    (I don't know what sort of gods cows and other meat-crops worship but I doubt we could understand them.)
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  2. #502
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post


    Anthropocentrism
    (from Greek: ????????, anthropos, "human being"; and ???????, kentron, "center") or anthrocentrism is the belief that humans must be considered at the center of, and above any other aspect of, reality.
    I don't quite see your point here. Most humans, regardless of religion, are athropocentric (which is a lens of life that can be lived in a just and humane manner). Shouldn't you be arguing about why we should not live with this mindset since you are in the distinct minority?
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
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  3. #503
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, homo sapiens have a choice when it comes to diet, especially when it comes to excessive protein consumption and the raising and killing of livestock premature to them ever living a fulfilling existence.



    Anthropocentrism
    (from Greek: ????????, anthropos, "human being"; and ???????, kentron, "center") or anthrocentrism is the belief that humans must be considered at the center of, and above any other aspect of, reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    You're right (at least in the bolded part). That also means being part of that cycle when it comes to not being the predator, when we are the 'weak'. Granted, we'll fight for survival as will any other organism. But our death is just as natural as any other animal's. We're not extra special. We're part of nature, of life *and* death. The fact that we have no qualms aborting other animals when we scream murder when it happens to our own...odd, to say the least. Especially coz we cannot even ask those animals what they would like done to them. We just do it.
    You'll find that there are moralities by which humans are a species apart from other life, but which do not permit excessive and wasteful killing. So humans killing animals for sustenance is fine. Killing them just for sport is another question altogether.

    That humans are of more value than other life is indicated by a number of things. If humans were not special in this regard, laws protecting human rights would have no grounds.

    I suspect, however, that you would argue in favor of for example treating prisoners well--something other species would never comprehend.

  4. #504
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    ...
    Okay. Wow. This thread got way more savage way too fast. But anyway,



    Okay. I'm cool with this logic. But where do we draw the line? Seriously. I feel like there's no barrier to an abortion if any woman wants one. Isn't there something wrong with it being used repeatedly as birth control? It happens too muchly for my comfort.
    I agree with you entirely. The problem is, there isn't a line that can be drawn more than what has already been (as in the trimesters determining how readily available abortion is to a woman) without infringing on the rights. The rare cases described are usually the ones that get hurt the most in these battles. I don't like it being used as a birth control. But I'm not the sort to punish the few because the many are retards.

    Just like I'd rather 10 people escape prison than one innocent man be sent, I'd rather 100 women abuse their right to have an abortion in privacy so that one girl that needs the facilities can do so in privacy. Not everyone agrees with that philosophy, but it is mine, and my motivations for being pro-choice. Being pro-choice doesn't mean being pro-abortion automatically.
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  5. #505
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    My quote is exactly what you said. "Rape, even incestual rape, would still be using the grounds of convenience for permitting abortion." "The life is more important, and nobody has the right to take away the innocent's life." (this implying that the innocent life of an unborn child supercedes the innocent future taken away from the already existing child) "It's inconvenient? ok abortion It's embarassing? ok abortion It's difficult to raise a child? ok abortion It's hard to handle a baby at your age? ok abortion" (in a sarcastic tone.)

    These quotes put together say exactly this: If you're a 13 year old child raped by your father and you get pregnant, Tough fuckin' titty. Your life is no longer innocent and is unimportant in the presence of an unwanted child you never intended on having. And why? Because someone who has never been in your situation says that abortion is wrong, absolutely. That, to me, is a barbaric position, indeed.

    I stated my case, and my beliefs. I don't plan or aim to change your mind, and you will not change mine. I'm done with my points. If you continue to engage me with the topic, I'll simply delete my points. They don't amount to anything anyways, just like yours are fruitless. This is a case of morality, where no one is absolutely right to anyone except themselves.
    In your second paragraph, you claim that I say rape victims are not innocent. This is incorrect. You must have jumped to a conclusion or misunderstood something. Regarding the last sentence of the same paragraph: most people have not been involved in armed robbery, yet those same folks accurately assert that robbery is wrong. But what would they know?

    Your beliefs are built upon shaky grounds. And you continue to ignore my support of the social safety net programs that I have already mentioned several times.

  6. #506
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    Ah the old "rape" argument

    Only 1% of abortions statistically are "hard cases" like rape etc

    Though my stance on this is that mothers should try to be reasonable about this, is it something you really can't handle or is it just the "easy way out"

    It seems like the amount of abortions is unjustified, I guess you just can't trust people to make rational choices, at the same time I don't agree that it should be outlawed, people should be able to choose

  7. #507
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    What I find interesting is that many people will agree that abortion is "wrong" but will not address the conditions that make abortion a preferable choice for some women.

    There are real problems with states child support systems. In Virginia alone, 2.5 billion is owed to child support cases. And this is not even counting women who have never filed for child support. This is nothing new, everyone has heard horror stories about child support....BUT who is doing anything about it? I hear more about men getting sucked dry by child support and how that is so wrong, but no real answers on how to fix any of it. And of course when I hear the amount they are paying in child support and it is no where near close to 50% of a childs living expenses, leaving me to think that this again is another case of women do right by all costs but men can do whatever they want without consequences. I'll be honest, it leaves me scratching my head when so many men proclaim abortion is murder and wrong....but aren't as outraged over the children that are here and are not being taken care of.

    If eliminating the need for abortion is the goal, the game plan needs to start changing on a basic level.

  8. #508
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tewt View Post
    What I find interesting is that many people will agree that abortion is "wrong" but will not address the conditions that make abortion a preferable choice for some women.
    Moral absolutism ftw
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  9. #509
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    "Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
    --GK Chesterton

  10. #510
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    In your second paragraph, you claim that I say rape victims are not innocent. This is incorrect. You must have jumped to a conclusion or misunderstood something. Regarding the last sentence of the same paragraph: most people have not been involved in armed robbery, yet those same folks accurately assert that robbery is wrong. But what would they know?

    Your beliefs are built upon shaky grounds. And you continue to ignore my support of the social safety net programs that I have already mentioned several times.
    I'm not Acknowledging and ignoring your persistent "OMG I HEART SOCIAL PROGRAMZ" because I AGREE with them as well. Thus, there's nothing to argue or discuss. In case you didn't pick up on that.

    I really don't wanna go deleting all my posts just to avoid confrontation, so how about you kindly stop replying to me like I requested a post ago? Is the last word really that important to you? If it is, you can have it. I won't reply to this one either. I'm not ending my discussion in the thread, just with you Take Five.

    Anyways, Tewt I entirely agree. I'm not for abortion at all, just for the choice being an option. If society were different, the amount of excuses would diminish, and a natural social stigmatism for women trying to opt for "the easy way out" (although I don't think abortion is an easy decision for anyone) would develop. People with lame excuses are generally looked down on.
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