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  1. #491
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Someday birth control will be 100% effective and available to all. Then abortion will become a thing of the past.
    I never took you for an idealist.

    ... for example, what about "user error"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Good page, and you've tied into my earlier note about the one punishment for a man who forced a woman to miscarry... it was punished by Jewish law, but not as a murder.

    There's also a page there tracks the general Christian beliefs (quoting various authorities from each time period) about abortion, and yes, it's interesting to see how the generally accepted beliefs fluctuate over time. Today's "Christian" valueset is just one in a chain of valuesets that Christianity has espoused.

    Historical abortion beliefs of the Christian church
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I never took you for an idealist.

    ... for example, what about "user error"?
    That's not 100%.

  3. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    There's also a page there tracks the general Christian beliefs (quoting various authorities from each time period) about abortion, and yes, it's interesting to see how the generally accepted beliefs fluctuate over time. Today's "Christian" valueset is just one in a chain of valuesets that Christianity has espoused.

    Historical abortion beliefs of the Christian church
    The only thing that's really fluctuated is whether or not the fetus has a soul(which was largely based on the scientific data at the time), and whether killing it constitutes murder per se. Nevertheless, Christianity has consistently upheld abortion to be wrong.

  4. #494
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The only thing that's really fluctuated is whether or not the fetus has a soul(which was largely based on the scientific data at the time), and whether killing it constitutes murder per se. Nevertheless, Christianity has consistently upheld abortion to be wrong.
    Fixed.

    So you're saying the institution of the Church doesn't really consider abortion wrong because it's murder, it's for some other reason?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #495
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Fixed.

    So you're saying the institution of the Church doesn't really consider abortion wrong because it's murder, it's for some other reason?
    I think this sums it up:
    "The early period of Christianity established a firm and consistent opposition to abortion. Later periods were faithful to this tradition despite continuing attempts on the part of various ecclesiastical writers to find an exception to the church's condemnation of direct abortion in every instance. The Church did not always regard all abortion as simple homicide, however, although it regarded the abortion of an unformed or unanimated fetus (if there were such a thing) as anticipated homicide or homicide by intent because it always involved the destruction of a future human being. The distinctions between true homicide and quasi-homicide, and formed and unformed fetus had practical significance only with respect to legal classification and the grading of penances relative to the reconciliation of sinners.

    The pronouncements by modern popes on the subject of abortion omit these obsolete distinctions. Hence, their opposition to abortion may appear more definitive and unqualified than statements made by earlier popes. Nonetheless, the Church's moral teaching that abortion is always a grave evil has remained intact throughout history."


    Catholic Culture : Library : The Roman Catholic Church and Abortion: An Historical Perspective - Part II
    A direct parallel can be said to exist in many legal systems today; where even if abortion is legal, illegal acts that result in the death of a fetus are still punishable. The question is what specific crime are you charged with.

    The issue in question is not whether abortion is evil or not, but what is the exact nature of its evil.

  6. #496
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Someday birth control will be 100% effective and available to all.

    Then abortion will become a thing of the past.
    No it won't. People will always find a way to screw it up.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #497
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    I find this discussion to be rather speciesist. Shall I dig myself a grave by admitting that I think it's rather anthropocentric to value the life of about a million fetuses killed annually due to abortions in America, and not blink an eye at the 27 million animals raised and also killed prematurely every day, purely to feed Americans?

    I think I shall. Does having a neocortex and the ability to express ourselves culturally in advanced ways really give us the right to blindly value our own species alone?
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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  8. #498
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Being human doesn't exempt us from the food chain. Humans are, however, a species set apart from the rest in terms of value.

  9. #499
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Being human doesn't exempt us from the food chain.
    If I'm not mistaken, homo sapiens have a choice when it comes to diet, especially when it comes to excessive protein consumption and the raising and killing of livestock premature to them ever living a fulfilling existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Humans are, however, a species set apart from the rest in terms of value.

    Anthropocentrism
    (from Greek: ????????, anthropos, "human being"; and ???????, kentron, "center") or anthrocentrism is the belief that humans must be considered at the center of, and above any other aspect of, reality.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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  10. #500
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Being human doesn't exempt us from the food chain. Humans are, however, a species set apart from the rest in terms of value.
    You're right (at least in the bolded part). That also means being part of that cycle when it comes to not being the predator, when we are the 'weak'. Granted, we'll fight for survival as will any other organism. But our death is just as natural as any other animal's. We're not extra special. We're part of nature, of life *and* death. The fact that we have no qualms aborting other animals when we scream murder when it happens to our own...odd, to say the least. Especially coz we cannot even ask those animals what they would like done to them. We just do it.
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