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  1. #481
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    There are rare casses where a mother's life is put in danger by her pregnancy, yes. Are we to then justify abortion for everyone else based on these rare cases? I may have to shoot someone out of self defense, but this doesn't make it OK to shoot any one for any other reason, does it?

    My arguement against abortion is that we must preserve human life. All human life. When it comes down to a life or death situation I can see how the woman should be given a concession to terminate the pregnancy. Her life and the child's life are equally important. I think, though, that if we as a culture accepted the full personhood of the unborn, a lot more women than you might think would opt to risk their lives for their children. I know that I would.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
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  2. #482
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star W View Post
    I think, though, that if we as a culture accepted the full personhood of the unborn, a lot more women than you might think would opt to risk their lives for their children. I know that I would.
    America has a great mix of cultures. Are you suggesting forcing this belief onto others who do not or perhaps cannot accept the "unborn" as having full personhood, due to cultural or religious beliefs?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  3. #483
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    America has a great mix of cultures. Are you suggesting forcing this belief onto others who do not or perhaps cannot accept the "unborn" as having full personhood, due to cultural or religious beliefs?
    Are you suggesting that millions of unborn should be sacrificed due to the beleifs of a narcissistic culture?

    I would also like to add that the only reason at all that you place value on the individual rights of a person at all is due to the influence on Western culture by the Judeo-Christian ethic. You are attempting to devalue a life based on the idea that an individual is valuable. You can't do that. If the woman has any value at all it is because human life is inhearently valuable.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
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  4. #484
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star W View Post
    Are you suggesting that millions of unborn should be sacrificed due to the beleifs of a narcissistic culture?

    I would also like to add that the only reason at all that you place value on the individual rights of a person at all is due to the influence on Western culture by the Judeo-Christian ethic. You are attempting to devalue a life based on the idea that an individual is valuable. You can't do that. If the woman has any value at all it is because human life is inhearently valuable.
    The idea that life is inherently valuable at all is a modern value.

    Judaism believes that a fetus is not a person until it's 1) at least halfway out of the womb 2) takes its first breath. Then again, Jews have always been considered babykillers, so this just confirms it for you, doesn't it?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #485
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The idea that life is inherently valuable at all is a modern value.

    Judaism believes that a fetus is not a person until it's 1) at least halfway out of the womb 2) takes its first breath. Then again, Jews have always been considered babykillers, so this just confirms it for you, doesn't it?
    Modern values are extensively influenced by Christian values.

    I'm not an expert on Judaism but I feel the information you are giving me is highly suspect. Also, I don't see why you are attacking me for being anti-Semitic.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
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  6. #486
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star W View Post
    Modern values are extensively influenced by Christian values.

    I'm not an expert on Judaism but I feel the information you are giving me is highly suspect. Also, I don't see why you are attacking me for being anti-Semitic.
    Jewish beliefs about abortion

    It's not that Jews don't value a fetus it's just that what you're saying that a fetus has all rights as a person and of equal value as the woman's is a false premise for, well, a significant number of people.

    As I said. If you want to prevent abortions, improve conditions for women with unwanted pregnancies. Even if you get rid of legal abortions, women will still go to shady clinics or try it themselves in their bathrooms. Greed is a stronger motivator than fear.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #487
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Jewish beliefs about abortion

    It's not that Jews don't value a fetus it's just that what you're saying that a fetus has all rights as a person and of equal value as the woman's is a false premise for, well, a significant number of people.

    As I said. If you want to prevent abortions, improve conditions for women with unwanted pregnancies. Even if you get rid of legal abortions, women will still go to shady clinics or try it themselves in their bathrooms. Greed is a stronger motivator than fear.




    I agree with you here wholeheartedly. This doesn't change the fact that laws should protect the innocent and defenseless.

    Throughout this discussion, though, I have been disgusted by the lack of reverence and respect towards an innocent life, even going so far as to call them malignant parasites. If this is how they veiw a human in the beginning stages of life, then how on earth are they going to justify valuing a woman who began life the same way? It is a fair question. Is an individual human life sacred or not? And if so, then, why?

    Thank you for sharing this information with me. I will check it out.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
    ~ Groucho Marx

  8. #488
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star W View Post
    [/B]

    I agree with you here wholeheartedly. This doesn't change the fact that laws should protect the innocent and defenseless.

    Throughout this discussion, though, I have been disgusted by the lack of reverence and respect towards an innocent life, even going so far as to call them malignant parasites. If this is how they veiw a human in the beginning stages of life, then how on earth are they going to justify valuing a woman who began life the same way? It is a fair question. Is an individual human life sacred or not? And if so, then, why?

    Thank you for sharing this information with me. I will check it out.
    Lack of respect for babies/children is becoming a cultural value. This is because babies/children are becoming increasingly difficult to deal with in modern society because it's no longer based with them in mind.

    Jew's views of abortions:

    1. Does the fetus have the same rights as the mother? No.

    2. Should women have access to abortions without interference of the government? Yes (conservative/reform), No (orthodox)

    3. Should you have an abortion? Ask the rabbi, dear.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #489
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    Someday birth control will be 100% effective and available to all.

    Then abortion will become a thing of the past.

  10. #490
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Lack of respect for babies/children is becoming a cultural value. This is because babies/children are becoming increasingly difficult to deal with in modern society because it's no longer based with them in mind.
    These values can be changed. African slaves were considered less than human because Americans had created a system dependant on slave labor. The slaves were considered less than human because Americans needed a justification to continue their way of life. You may not agree with me that a fetus is a person, but I don't see how anyone could dissagree with me that the values of a culture must at times be challenged. And when they are challenged, they are often changed.
    Jew's views of abortions:

    1. Does the fetus have the same rights as the mother? No.

    2. Should women have access to abortions without interference of the government? Yes (conservative/reform), No (orthodox)

    3. Should you have an abortion? Ask the rabbi, dear.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
    ~ Groucho Marx

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