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  1. #451
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    As for all the other situations that are causes for women to want abortions, either allow them to have them or make it not so horrible to have a child.
    It is impossible to choose the choice for the woman. It is her decision. But it is really sad for her choice to be abortion.

  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star W View Post
    Sure, you believe they aren't human, but you may be wrong. If you are wrong, then you are supporting murder.
    Suppose we allowed abortions and years later, philosophers decided that it has been murder all along. So what? Without religion, it doesn't matter. The consequences are purely academic.

    Suppose we forced women to carry to term, then years later, philosophers decided that zygotes are not people after all. In this case, we've ruined peoples lives all for nothing.

  3. #453
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    It is impossible to choose the choice for the woman. It is her decision. But it is really sad for her choice to be abortion.
    I think a lot of people here actually do agree with that.
    ...Even the people you're disagreeing with on whether or not it should be permissible.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #454
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think a lot of people here actually do agree with that.
    ...Even the people you're disagreeing with on whether or not it should be permissible.
    A sad choice may be prevented. If one person prevents the upsetting choice of abortion that person has saved the life of a future child. And saving one person is on the inside equal to saving all living things on this planet.

  5. #455
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    It is impossible to choose the choice for the woman. It is her decision. But it is really sad for her choice to be abortion.
    It's a very sad choice, yes, but it makes a lot of sense considering.

    Babies born outside of wedlock are still considered undesirable when the couple is causal/younger (if two adults are in a committed, stable relationship to each other for the long term and just happen to not be married and then conceive, it's considered more acceptable, but still 'weird'). Children are extremely expensive, time-consuming, and emotionally draining. Couples often choose to conceive only when they decide they have enough of these resources to sufficiently raise the child. Often those who have 'unwanted' babies don't have the finances or energy to support a child, and sometimes don't even have enough to support themselves. If you can barely support yourself, how can you be expected to take care of a baby?

    As someone also said, pregnancy leaves a woman very vulnerable and dependent for a while. This is all fine and good if there's someone to willingly take care of the woman, like a husband or devoted boyfriend or a loving extended family, but what of when there's no one? There are some state/church funded programs, but these also carry a stigma and are often insufficient.

    Parents now are expected to give up everything for their children, especially mothers. It's a huge commitment. Careers are lost or indefinitely put on hold for the sake of children. Maternity leaves given are often very short. Daycare is expensive, and work often gets out much later than kids get out of school. A parent's life is stopped dead in its tracks for 10-18 years, maybe longer, and they have to start over because workplaces consider these years 'wasted'. Huh? How is raising a child 'wasted' years? Apparently because these women weren't training for jobs or adding to the GDP they were 'wasting' their time.

    Or, you say, why not just put up these children for adoption? But if no one's willing to shoulder the burden of the child, it just becomes a burden of the state, unwanted. A mother might preemptively agree with the child in that yes, it should have never been born.

    Take away the social stigma and more of the huge financial burden and you'd have fewer abortions. Telling women to "just don't have sex" is just perpetuating the problem further.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #456
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    ^ I've posted this picture before and I feel obliged to post it again. And I'll paraphrase a bit of what I said before.

    This baby would not have a life if it was aborted. It would cease to exist. Every abortion has prevented a beautiful baby like this from appearing less than half a year later. It is very saddening to think of every baby that ever ceased to exist because of one's personal gain.
    People go for abortions for the selfish reason of wanting themselves to have an easier life. The reason cannot be other than selfish because it solely for themselves.

    I believe a child is worth much more than any money or wealth you ever gain in your life. Because it is a life. And a life being prevented to live for one's own personal gain is extremely sad.

  7. #457
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    ^ I've posted this picture before and I feel obliged to post it again. And I'll paraphrase a bit of what I said before.

    This baby would not have a life if it was aborted. It would cease to exist. Every abortion has prevented a beautiful baby like this from appearing less than half a year later. It is very saddening to think of every baby that ever ceased to exist because of one's personal gain.
    People go for abortions for the selfish reason of wanting themselves to have an easier life. The reason cannot be other than selfish because it solely for themselves.

    I believe a child is worth much more than any money or wealth you ever gain in your life. Because it is a life. And a life being prevented to live for one's own personal gain is extremely sad.
    Psst it's a fat, deformed, ughly mound of flesh =3

    Babies aren't beautiful or cute. They're drooling, mishappen ill formed shapes. The only reason that people find them 'beautiful' at all, is because yeu're genetically predisposed to prefer them.

    If yeu saw an adult who had the same proportions as a baby, yeu'd consider them disgusting, fat, and probably pity them for having such a horrid looking dibilitating appearance.

    Not commenting on the rest of the post, I'm just pointing out that the picture seriously isn't going to win my favour at least, and it's a poor argument. Beauty is not a reason to provide life. It's shallow and sad to think that way.

  8. #458
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Psst it's a fat, deformed, ughly mound of flesh =3

    Babies aren't beautiful or cute. They're drooling, mishappen ill formed shapes. The only reason that people find them 'beautiful' at all, is because yeu're genetically predisposed to prefer them.

    If yeu saw an adult who had the same proportions as a baby, yeu'd consider them disgusting, fat, and probably pity them for having such a horrid looking dibilitating appearance.

    Not commenting on the rest of the post, I'm just pointing out that the picture seriously isn't going to win my favour at least, and it's a poor argument. Beauty is not a reason to provide life. It's shallow and sad to think that way.
    As I said before,
    There are certain things you believe and see which would change your views
    A baby is of pure innocence. This is why it is seen as such cute thing. It is not the looks. It is of a different standpoint and view. I'm not trying to change yours. I just want you to realise other's.

  9. #459
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I haven't read all 46 pages. However I'm wondering if these issues have been addressed.

    1) For those who don't believe in forcing their beliefs on others, why then are citizen's tax dollars used to perform abortions? This seems like a contradiction. At the very least, citizens should be able to opt out of their taxes paying for something they believe is wrong.

    2) People who feel strongly that people shouldn't be inconvenienced by an unwanted child then should be held to a higher level of planning ahead. In the vast majority of cases, no one is forcing them to have sex, nor are they deprived of birth control and information on how to prevent conception. At the very least, they should be able to plan ahead for enough money to pay for their own abortion, rather than relying on others because they made a series of decisions that have ended in a result they do not like.

    3) There is an enormous waiting list for newborn babies all over the country (several years long for the average couple). The children who are difficult to adopt are those who are older. So the adoption not being a good option argument doesn't really hold water.

    4) People keep bringing up the victims of rape and incest as well as babies with congenital defects or cases where the mother's life is endangered. This makes up an extremely small percentage of those who choose to have abortions.

    5) The cost of the emotional and marital fallout for those who have abortions is rarely addressed. This is not only a societal cost, but a very real healthcare cost as well. Women receive very little couselling before abortions, nor are they given opportunities to talk to women who have gone through the experience themselves. They are also not given adequate information about how an abortion could affect their health and their reproductive future.

  10. #460
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    As I said before,

    A baby is of pure innocence. This is why it is seen as such cute thing. It is not the looks. It is of a different standpoint and view. I'm not trying to change yours. I just want you to realise other's.
    I would also argue that it's pure evil; absolute greed incarnate with zero consideration for anyone but themselves.

    The only reason they're "innocent" is they don't know any better. If someone acted like that as an adult they'd be locked in jail, or murdered for being such a pretentious jerk.

    As yeu said before though, I have virtually no affection. There's alot of reasons for it, but the heavy bias against the F mindset to a point of nearly being warlike against it is probably the biggest cause XD

    From a logical perspective, babies really don't have many, if any, redeeming traits, other than false imagery such as the perception of innocence, or the inherent implication of immortality by proxy via gene transference.

    But most people don't like to talk about logic in relation to an emotional topic, so I kinda realize I'm not exactly on common ground here XD

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