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  1. #431
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    It's called REPERCUSSIONS.
    Babe, I don't think you want pro-lifers portrayed as merciless "punish those evildoers!!!1!" do you? I don't.

    My point in saying that abortion is difficult is that I think both pro-lifers and pro-choicers have things we should work on. For pro-lifers, we need to have more programs out there to support the children that are born without supportive parents. (GOOD programs.) I'm also suggesting that maybe pro-choicers ought to support further technology to make abortion a less psychologically scarring process. It's a hard decision to begin with, y'know? Don't add on to that with unnecessary...complications.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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  2. #432
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It's not about the fetus.

    It's about sexual equality and women's rights.

    If you are male, you will never be pregnant, no matter how many times you have sex.

    If you are female, you take a chance every single time you have sex that you could become pregnant.

    It used to be legal in this country to ask a woman before you hired her if she was pregnant or planning to become pregnant, and DENY HER EMPLOYMENT on that basis.

    It used to be assumed that women would marry and have kids (or get pregnant, marry, and have kids). Because of that assumption, fathers sometimes refused to provide for daughters to go to college. What's the use? She'll be a mother and she won't have any use for an education. She won't need to work.

    Pregnancy makes a woman dependent. If she has no one to depend upon and she can't support herself, it may be her choice to abort rather than go on welfare, Aid To Dependent Children, etc.

    And the idea is that women should not have to live in fear of unwanted pregnancies, that they should be able to experience sexual freedom as much as men can, that they should have a right to be considered NOT pregnant until they say they want to be pregnant, whether pregnancy happens or not -- in other words, that they can to some degree plan their lives and have control over what happens to them. They can go to school, have careers, do something other than be mommies.
    It is all about the fetus. Nothing but. I am a woman and I do not wish to be punished for my gender any more than anyone else does. If the fetus is a person, then you have no right to kill it no matter how much it inconveiniences you any more than you have a right to kill any grown person that you feel is getting in your way.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
    ~ Groucho Marx

  3. #433
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Screw gray areas, just make it okay to abort children until they are 18 years of age.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #434
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star W View Post
    It is all about the fetus. Nothing but. I am a woman and I do not wish to be punished for my gender any more than anyone else does. If the fetus is a person, then you have no right to kill it no matter how much it inconveiniences you any more than you have a right to kill any grown person that you feel is getting in your way.
    I agree with this.

    There is a beautiful thing about a fetus. It is the bud of a life that will grow into one of the most beautiful things, which is a baby. That bud depends on you to let it grow into that miracle. And thus, abandoning it and letting it die is not allowing that baby to live. Many babies that could have been alive now could have been your best friend, lover, teacher, doctor, savior, etc. To think that a baby would die before it has a chance to be one is very upsetting.

    Oh yay. This was my 1000th post

  5. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    Babe, I don't think you want pro-lifers portrayed as merciless "punish those evildoers!!!1!" do you? I don't.

    My point in saying that abortion is difficult is that I think both pro-lifers and pro-choicers have things we should work on. For pro-lifers, we need to have more programs out there to support the children that are born without supportive parents. (GOOD programs.) I'm also suggesting that maybe pro-choicers ought to support further technology to make abortion a less psychologically scarring process. It's a hard decision to begin with, y'know? Don't add on to that with unnecessary...complications.
    No abortion, no complications. The procedures are safe, what you are arguing about is the fact that the procedure makes people "FEEL" bad about it. Tough luck, you should feel bad. I mean geez, it's like saying "I want to be able to shoot somebody dead for inconveniencing me, but I want a way for me to shoot them and never have to witness or be fully conscious of the aftermath. I just want them GONE." It's pathetic in all honesty. If you're going to kill something, then be willing to look at your handiwork.

    However, I do agree that we need better adoption programs.

  6. #436
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Though I'm not knowledgeable of the specific details, there is a Pregnant Women Support Act that has been bounced around. This bill aims to provide financial resources to women in order to avoid abortions. I think provisions similar to this, and measures to improve adoption, would rule out the "women suffer from unwanted pregnancy" argument.

    While a pregnant woman has the right to be upset at an unwanted pregnancy, her rights end where another's begin. It is not unusual for the murder or assault of a pregnant woman which causes the death of a fetus to result in charges of double homicide. Suppose a happily pregnant woman is murdered. Should the resulting death of the fetus be grounds merely for charges of destruction of property? No.

    The legitimate argument here is at what point does the Human Being start existing. I would argue the moment at which natural growth of a living being begins is the moment at which the person is made. It makes no sense to limit personhood to any particular level of development--people continue to grow long after birth. Further, one can suffer the absence of any number of limbs or body parts and still retain human personhood. Lack of full development, or even lack of consciousness, does not equate to lack of personhood.

    Abortion is irresponsible and selfish.

  7. #437
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    No abortion, no complications. The procedures are safe, what you are arguing about is the fact that the procedure makes people "FEEL" bad about it. Tough luck, you should feel bad. I mean geez, it's like saying "I want to be able to shoot somebody dead for inconveniencing me, but I want a way for me to shoot them and never have to witness or be fully conscious of the aftermath. I just want them GONE." It's pathetic in all honesty. If you're going to kill something, then be willing to look at your handiwork.
    I dunno, giving birth is pretty traumatizing in and of itself. As traumatizing, even -- incidence of post-partum depression is about the same between women who have abortions and women who give birth.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #438
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Though I'm not knowledgeable of the specific details, there is a Pregnant Women Support Act that has been bounced around. This bill aims to provide financial resources to women in order to avoid abortions. I think provisions similar to this, and measures to improve adoption, would rule out the "women suffer from unwanted pregnancy" argument.

    While a pregnant woman has the right to be upset at an unwanted pregnancy, her rights end where another's begin. It is not unusual for the murder or assault of a pregnant woman which causes the death of a fetus to result in charges of double homicide. Suppose a happily pregnant woman is murdered. Should the resulting death of the fetus be grounds merely for charges of destruction of property? No.

    The legitimate argument here is at what point does the Human Being start existing. I would argue the moment at which natural growth of a living being begins is the moment at which the person is made. It makes no sense to limit personhood to any particular level of development--people continue to grow long after birth. Further, one can suffer the absence of any number of limbs or body parts and still retain human personhood. Lack of full development, or even lack of consciousness, does not equate to lack of personhood.

    Abortion is irresponsible and selfish.
    Then we need to expand all rights of people to fetuses, too.

    Like taxes. Fetuses need taxes paid on them. Rights need to begin at fetushood, meaning that any person conceived in the US could become President, not just those born there. And if they want to leave the country, they'll need passports, too. Also, if the mother is abusing the fetus it needs to be able to be taken away by child services to a more loving womb.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #439
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Then forgive any misunderstandings on my part.
    I could've been more clear with my words.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #440
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Then we need to expand all rights of people to fetuses, too.

    Like taxes. Fetuses need taxes paid on them. Rights need to begin at fetushood, meaning that any person conceived in the US could become President, not just those born there. And if they want to leave the country, they'll need passports, too. Also, if the mother is abusing the fetus it needs to be able to be taken away by child services to a more loving womb.
    Your comment is very saddening. One must realise that what they are dealing with is a life. The fetus is there awaiting to be born yet it is prevented. Life is being constructed in the fetus. You would be removing the life of a baby that would have been born within less than half a year. It would be the dead older brother or sister of a child you may have in the future. It could have been your son or daughter that would have come to you for help whenever someone picked on them in school. It is sad to see that someone would abort what would have loved them a year later.

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