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  1. #421
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    this is similar to "you should believe in god...just in case!" which is a ridiculous argument. This isnt a game of black jack! (im not saying your beliefs are wrong or right, but your justification...)
    I don't think it's a ridiculous argument, nor is it entirely equivalent to the God argument you are tossing out here.

    In the God argument, we can't tell if ANYTHING exists whatsoever. Nothing tangible is there. There's a wide range of options there -- anywhere from God exists and fits a particular image that people have come up to the extreme of God does not exist at all.

    With the fetus, we DO know it at some point it becomes a baby... and we consider a baby a person. So the range here is that the "fetus is alive but has not yet become a person" to "the fetus is alive and a person." This is a much narrower range. We know it becomes a person, it's inevitable, we just don't know when. If the God argument was expressed in similar terms, our range would something like "God exists and has goals towards humanity" to "God exists and fits the exact image of a particular religion."

    This is why the "fetus might be a person at such-and-such a stage, let's show some prudence" argument does need to be considered... except for the fact that we just can't get more granular with it.

    It's the same reasoning that comes up in cases like Terry Schiavo's -- we know she used to live and "look alive" and could engage people like everyone else, now we can't see inside her head and know what's going on, so... let's be careful about what we assume and what we do.

    It's very prudent and very appropriate.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Even for women who would have to do it to keep them from becoming crippled/dying?
    She's talking about the gruesomeness and ill emotions that some women experience with aborting a fetus. If you're gonna choose to do it, then know you'll have to deal with that. Trying to eliminate that would serve to diminish the impact their actions have on their psyche. It's similar to how people can go on the internet and act like a-holes. They do it on the net because there are no repercussions for their actions. If it were in the real world where they immediately receive punishment from others for antisocial behavior, they would cease to act that way. If a woman has an abortion and has to actually look at what they are doing to the fetus, they would be much more likely to change their behavior to avoid that in the future. Take that away, and nobody learns or changes their behavior.

  3. #423
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    So one moment you claim that the definition of human is largely a subjective, unsubstantiable opinion, yet try to back it up with the objectivity of science? No that's not consistent. You're conceding that there is an objective element to defining what is human. Then again, defining personhood as I said earlier is largely an ethical matter, which does makes claim to objectivity as well.

    The whole concept of justice and law is based upon an objective standard; otherwise you leave room for things like the Nuremberg laws as I mentioned earlier. And here's a little piece of the subjective morality that undergrid that regime:

    --Heinrich Himmler, October 4, 1943 in Poznan
    I didn't back it up with the objectivity of science, I specifically said that it was subjective and unsubstantiable. All that I said was that reviewing the science was one of the premises that leads to my ("subjective," "unsubstantiable") conclusion. I said I don't feel confident about the grey area stuff, I said I simply have an opinion about the grey area stuff.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I didn't back it up with the objectivity of science, I specifically said that it was subjective and unsubstantiable. All that I said was that reviewing the science was one of the premises that leads to my ("subjective," "unsubstantiable") conclusion. I said I don't feel confident about the grey area stuff, I said I simply have an opinion about the grey area stuff.
    Then forgive any misunderstandings on my part.

  5. #425
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    And do not get me started on the people who use this as repetitive birth control. I'm sorry, but I find that a cruel way to keep yourself repeatedly from being pregnant.
    I agree, that really bothers me.
    Just too many assumptions at work there and a seeming callousness.

    I know that being pro-choice doesn't mean you WANT an abortion. But if we're going to have them, can't we try and make them less...what's the word...traumatizing?
    I have strongly mixed feelings.

    As a parent and just as a person, I am a strong believer in cause/effect and realistically accepting the outcome of one's decisions. I don't think anyone should be put through unnecessary duress in a situation where an abortion is chosen agonizingly, at the same time I really don't like taking away the natural consequences of a decision like this because it I just feel like we have to accept the weight of our decisions -- it influences what we choose, it gives our choices meaning, it helps us understand the ramifications of our decisions.

    (This example is trivial, but I'm reminded of that old Star Trek episode where two cultures would schedule a simulated war on their computers, calculate who died during the bombings, then order the appropriate people to report to termination centers where they would be killed as casualties, meanwhile the rest of the cultures would just buzz right along no worse for wear... and everyone just accepted this because they were not exposed to the horrific nature of bombing runs, collateral damage, fires in the streets, the collapses of the cultures' infrastructures, etc. Sanitizing the war enabled the horrors to continue, whereas not sanitizing it provided a motivation to avoid fighting in the first place.)

    EDIT: This sort of aligns with what Risen said when I was writing my post. Take away the ramifications of what the choice to abort means directly, and you enable the behavior to occur hapazardly/callously... and that's not good for the woman either, because she might make a choice that then she WILL regret and just didn't realize it up front.

    Of course, I also think that a child is a child, unborn or not, but that's just me. Ever been to a miscarried child's funeral?
    To me it's a sign that no matter how we try to intellectualize this argument and make it one of ideas and ideology, the bottom line is that many people still instinctive view a fetus as a baby and person.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #426
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Would somebody explain to me how a fetus is not a human?

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    the bottom line is that many people still instinctive view a fetus as a baby and person.
    As it should be. Geez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Would somebody explain to me how a fetus is not a human?
    It's human, as in it belongs to the species homo sapiens.

    As to whether it is a human being, and subject to the same rights, laws, and ethical concerns is the problem.

  9. #429
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    It's not about the fetus.

    It's about sexual equality and women's rights.

    If you are male, you will never be pregnant, no matter how many times you have sex.

    If you are female, you take a chance every single time you have sex that you could become pregnant.

    It used to be legal in this country to ask a woman before you hired her if she was pregnant or planning to become pregnant, and DENY HER EMPLOYMENT on that basis.

    It used to be assumed that women would marry and have kids (or get pregnant, marry, and have kids). Because of that assumption, fathers sometimes refused to provide for daughters to go to college. What's the use? She'll be a mother and she won't have any use for an education. She won't need to work.

    Pregnancy makes a woman dependent. If she has no one to depend upon and she can't support herself, it may be her choice to abort rather than go on welfare, Aid To Dependent Children, etc.

    And the idea is that women should not have to live in fear of unwanted pregnancies, that they should be able to experience sexual freedom as much as men can, that they should have a right to be considered NOT pregnant until they say they want to be pregnant, whether pregnancy happens or not -- in other words, that they can to some degree plan their lives and have control over what happens to them. They can go to school, have careers, do something other than be mommies.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    It's not about the fetus.

    It's about sexual equality and women's rights.

    If you are male, you will never be pregnant, no matter how many times you have sex.

    If you are female, you take a chance every single time you have sex that you could become pregnant.

    It used to be legal in this country to ask a woman before you hired her if she was pregnant or planning to become pregnant, and DENY HER EMPLOYMENT on that basis.

    It used to be assumed that women would marry and have kids (or get pregnant, marry, and have kids). Because of that assumption, fathers sometimes refused to provide for daughters to go to college. What's the use? She'll be a mother and she won't have any use for an education. She won't need to work.

    Pregnancy makes a woman dependent. If she has no one to depend upon and she can't support herself, it may be her choice to abort rather than go on welfare, Aid To Dependent Children, etc.

    And the idea is that women should not have to live in fear of unwanted pregnancies, that they should be able to experience sexual freedom as much as men can, that they should have a right to be considered NOT pregnant until they say they want to be pregnant, whether pregnancy happens or not -- in other words, that they can to some degree plan their lives and have control over what happens to them. They can go to school, have careers, do something other than be mommies.
    While I agree with all of that, you're ducking the crux of the matter. It is about the fetus. The vast majority of those who have problems with abortion aren't seeking to keep women subjugated (though I'm sure gender equality is found threatening by some of them).

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