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  1. #411
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    I believe that an unborn child is a person. I can not prove this. But I would like to point something out.

    It seems like many who are pro choice are willing to admit that they don't know when life begins. Well, I would ask, since you don't know whether or not the fetus is human, wouldn't you rather err on the side of caution and choose not to terminate the unborn because they really might be human? Sure, you believe they aren't human, but you may be wrong. If you are wrong, then you are supporting murder. Would you dynamite a building if you were not 100% sure that there were no live humans in it?
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
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  2. #412
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, I'm guessing they're thinking that conscious intent -> "autonomous life form w/ awareness" -> killing it is murder, VS a tree that closes its leaves at night reflexively by nature or a venus flytrap that eats bugs when they touch it a certain way -> no conscious thought, all as reflexive as a mousetrap -> no life -> not murder to terminate it.

    So there's a declarable difference in how it works.
    Does that convey a moral difference as well?
    I doubt these are binary.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #413
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I doubt these are binary.
    oops, sorry, I missed that angle before. Thank you for clarifying.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #414
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    *Sigh* In regards to issues of "Civil Rights":

    --Martin Luther King jr., "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"
    whats fascinating is that if ^ is true... then America is well on its way to becoming the clusterfuck that is!

    Samuel Huntington wrote a book called "who are we?" Who are we?: the challenges to ... - Google Books
    it details how in the beginning America was actually rather homogeneous and thus it was easy to have a harmonious society that could agree on a world view and basically build an anglo-protestant paradise.

    Today, that homogeneity is gone. So you europeans want to know why America has such a hard time being socialist? Its a lot easier to pay for your neighbor when your neighbor is just like you and believes everything you do. Todays America is not bound by race, religion, or eventually even language (spanish/english). There has probably never been a successful society that endured without some sort of commonality.

    What would that commonality be? Turning "politics" into some sort of religion? Im not really sure, and neither is huntington. Anyways, i think it highlights why this debate just wont die in America. America just simply isnt homogenous enough to ever agree....

  5. #415
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Star W View Post
    I believe that an unborn child is a person. I can not prove this. But I would like to point something out.

    It seems like many who are pro choice are willing to admit that they don't know when life begins. Well, I would ask, since you don't know whether or not the fetus is human, wouldn't you rather err on the side of caution and choose not to terminate the unborn because they really might be human? Sure, you believe they aren't human, but you may be wrong. If you are wrong, then you are supporting murder. Would you dynamite a building if you were not 100% sure that there were no live humans in it?
    this is similar to "you should believe in god...just in case!"

    which is a ridiculous argument. This isnt a game of black jack! (im not saying your beliefs are wrong or right, but your justification...)

  6. #416
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    this is similar to "you should believe in god...just in case!"

    which is a ridiculous argument. This isnt a game of black jack! (im not saying your beliefs are wrong or right, but your justification...)
    I am addressing this arguement specifically to those like others I have debated with that tell me that we must allow and even promote abortion because we are unsure as to whether are not the fetus is human.

    They then proceed to tell me that I am arrogant and small minded for claiming to know when life begins. My point is that they are claiming to know the answer to this question every bit as much as I do, only they refuse to admit it. By promoting abortion, you are claiming to know for certain that the fetus is not human. If I am close minded on this subject, then they are every bit as close minded as I. Iam simply tired of hearing this denied.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
    ~ Groucho Marx

  7. #417
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    If you're going to have an abortion, I seriously think the system needs to be refigured out.

    I mean, I've talked to people who've had one, and if you take the pill approach, apparently you flush the fetus down the toilet. And some people do that after finding that the operation itself felt much more mortifying than expected. The do-it-yourself abortion didn't help that much. :P

    And do not get me started on the people who use this as repetitive birth control. I'm sorry, but I find that a cruel way to keep yourself repeatedly from being pregnant.

    I know that being pro-choice doesn't mean you WANT an abortion. But if we're going to have them, can't we try and make them less...what's the word...traumatizing?

    Of course, I also think that a child is a child, unborn or not, but that's just me. Ever been to a miscarried child's funeral?
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  8. #418
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bubbles View Post
    But if we're going to have them, can't we try and make them less...what's the word...traumatizing?
    It's called REPERCUSSIONS.

  9. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Babylon Candle View Post
    whats fascinating is that if ^ is true... then America is well on its way to becoming the clusterfuck that is!

    Samuel Huntington wrote a book called "who are we?" Who are we?: the challenges to ... - Google Books
    it details how in the beginning America was actually rather homogeneous and thus it was easy to have a harmonious society that could agree on a world view and basically build an anglo-protestant paradise.

    Today, that homogeneity is gone. So you europeans want to know why America has such a hard time being socialist? Its a lot easier to pay for your neighbor when your neighbor is just like you and believes everything you do. Todays America is not bound by race, religion, or eventually even language (spanish/english). There has probably never been a successful society that endured without some sort of commonality.

    What would that commonality be? Turning "politics" into some sort of religion? Im not really sure, and neither is huntington. Anyways, i think it highlights why this debate just wont die in America. America just simply isnt homogenous enough to ever agree....
    I'm familar with Huntington's work, and I do agree with many of his arguments. I even brought this issue up somewhat with Blackcat that a democracy requires a common belief in certain principles. I've also brought this in regards to discussions related to Communitarianism.

    In any case, I think I'm going to take a step back in this debate and let others argue the case.

  10. #420
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    It's called REPERCUSSIONS.
    Even for women who would have to do it to keep them from becoming crippled/dying?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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