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  1. #391
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Whatever happened to contraceptive on the male side?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #392
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Protecting against STD rubbers are fine. But after you both get a clean bill of health...?

    If they had reversable vasectomies or a male "pill" there woudl be a run to the vetI mean doctor.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
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  3. #393
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    To Usehername:

    According to your beliefs, did God not create life? According to Christianity, would it not also be up to Him to end life? If the Bible says that He has numbered our days before we were even born, it seems to me that it is not up to us to make that call.

    It's not like there was no brain activity and machines were merely keeping TS alive. She was starved to death and survived for days after been taken off any life support machines. (Not a kind sort of death!) At what point do you decide that that spectrum of TS non-valuable life form has begun? What if others close to the person (or perhaps even the person themselves!) value their life, while the next person decides it would be more convenient if those kind of people were not taking up valuable hospital space and resources since they are not living quality life and are going somewhere better anyway?

    I guess my argument is that whether someone like TS lives or dies, or a fetus at whatever stage lives or dies, someone is always imposing their belief on the general population.

    Unless you believe there is a higher moral authority like God, it really boils down to who is in the position of the most power to impose their belief.

    From a Christian perspective, the Bible makes it clear that a person who witnesses a murder and doesn't seek to intervene is as guilty as the murderer.

  4. #394
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Protecting against STD rubbers are fine. But after you both get a clean bill of health...?

    If they had reversable vasectomies or a male "pill" there woudl be a run to the vetI mean doctor.
    They're working on it.
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  5. #395
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    To Usehername:

    According to your beliefs, did God not create life? According to Christianity, would it not also be up to Him to end life? If the Bible says that He has numbered our days before we were even born, it seems to me that it is not up to us to make that call.

    It's not like there was no brain activity and machines were merely keeping TS alive. She was starved to death and survived for days after been taken off any life support machines. (Not a kind sort of death!) At what point do you decide that that spectrum of TS non-valuable life form has begun? What if others close to the person (or perhaps even the person themselves!) value their life, while the next person decides it would be more convenient if those kind of people were not taking up valuable hospital space and resources since they are not living quality life and are going somewhere better anyway?

    I guess my argument is that whether someone like TS lives or dies, or a fetus at whatever stage lives or dies, someone is always imposing their belief on the general population.

    Unless you believe there is a higher moral authority like God, it really boils down to who is in the position of the most power to impose their belief.

    From a Christian perspective, the Bible makes it clear that a person who witnesses a murder and doesn't seek to intervene is as guilty as the murderer.
    (FYI: I'm reading up on the case. When it happened I was too young to care about these issues--when I first glanced at the information I thought this happened in the 90s when I was a kid because I have no recollection of giving it any thought.)

    Could Shiavo have survived several hundred years ago? What kind of feeding tubes was she requiring to stay alive?

    As soon I make my will (geez I guess I'm old enough that I should make one!) I'm instantiating on there that if I'm draining resources and in anything less than a mentally aware and interactive state, I would sure hope to be officially killed. I don't think erring on the side of caution because we might be killing a life that God values is a choice that we need to make across the board.

    I don't have a problem with killing humans on principle. There's lots of God-ordained killing in the Bible. Killing humans does not bother me. It's killing humans without just cause that bothers me. We're explicitly taught to operate with the idea of hope, not fear; I think the keeping humans alive in some instances crosses into the refraining from killing out of fear rather than out of hope for eternal life and the value of that. As a believer in eternal life, if I was in an extenuating circumstance, I would be appalled if someone kept me alive just because they were afraid to kill me. There's a huge difference between hateful murder (sinful) and killing by definition (simply an act that can be obeying God's desires or disobeying God's desires).

    It does boil down to who has the most power to impose their beliefs. I agree. Should it be any other way?

    This defining of what human life is is at the heart of the debate. And I'm the first to admit it gets grey, and this is why though I have beliefs I would never impose them on others until it's out of the grey and into what I can conclusively call human.
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  6. #396
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Can I just say something? I get that sometimes an abortion seems like the best course of action. But WHY is this option better than:

    1) birth control
    2) adoption
    3) condoms

    I mean, any of those can produce the same result minus a large probability of psychological issues.

    Just saying.
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  7. #397
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Birth control (which condoms are) can fail.

    Adoption doesn't produce the same result- it still requires pregnancy and labor/birth or major abdominal surgery. It also makes certain the pregnancy will be public- I don't think spending 4-5 months in a home for unwed mothers is a viable option for most women. Not to mention adoptive parents want healthy babies born to healthy mothers, and not every mother who seeks abortion is healthy or carrying a healthy baby.
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  8. #398
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    It's not like there was no brain activity and machines were merely keeping TS alive. She was starved to death and survived for days after been taken off any life support machines. (Not a kind sort of death!) At what point do you decide that that spectrum of TS non-valuable life form has begun? What if others close to the person (or perhaps even the person themselves!) value their life, while the next person decides it would be more convenient if those kind of people were not taking up valuable hospital space and resources since they are not living quality life and are going somewhere better anyway?

    I guess my argument is that whether someone like TS lives or dies, or a fetus at whatever stage lives or dies, someone is always imposing their belief on the general population. Unless you believe there is a higher moral authority like God, it really boils down to who is in the position of the most power to impose their belief.
    TS was an interesting case. You're right, those in power get to impose their beliefs. In Terry's case, it was a matter of either her husband or her parents choosing whether or not she was going to be fed manually and somehow keep her alive.

    From a Christian perspective, the Bible makes it clear that a person who witnesses a murder and doesn't seek to intervene is as guilty as the murderer.
    I think if you're going in that direction, then we have to ask if aborting the baby is murder.

    The answer, according to the Jews in the OT, seems to be no.

    There is specifically a law in the OT regarding the punishment of a man who attacks a woman with the intent of causing her to miscarry. If he succeeds in causing her to miscarry, the law for intentional murder is supposed to be death, isn't it, according to the Ten Commandments and other similar passages?

    It should be, if the baby is a fully human life = murder. And this action is essentially a planned abortion (against the mother's will).

    But no, this man who intentionally murdered this woman's baby out of malice is... fined 50 shekels (or some similar fee).

    The price is paid to the baby's father, since I think only he could own property or was officially the owner of the baby.

    So it's pretty clear the unborn child was not equitable in Old Testament law to a live baby, because the punishment for "murder" under the law is not imposed in this situation.

    It sounds like the Jews had the same issue that we have when trying to determine the value of a human life before birth, and they chose to approach it pragmatically.
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  9. #399
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But no, this man who intentionally murdered this woman's baby out of malice is... fined 50 shekels (or some similar fee).
    California penal code makes unlawful killing of a fetus murder so the law does seem somewhat inconsistant in some jurisdictions

    PC 187

    " (a)Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

    (b)This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:

    (1)The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code.

    (2)The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon's certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth, although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or more likely than not.

    (3)The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus.

    (c)Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the prosecution of any person under any other provision of law."


    So one person could just have a guilty conscious and another person get life in prison (possibly death) for killing the same fetus?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
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  10. #400
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happy Puppy View Post
    In theory I very much agree with this. I almost with there was a compensation alternative. If dad pays medical expenses, frees mom of all obligations, and then reimburses her for lost wages and a surrogate fee, the baby is his.



    In practice there is a very real argument concerning the burden placed upon the woman in this situation. Carrying a baby takes a significant toll on you. It ages you, sorry to be the bearer of bad news. The last three months can be very draining and reduce your productivity substantially in the workplace or at school. My sister choose to have an abortion as her first pregnancy had her spend the last two months in bed. Being a single mom, working to support your family with no health insurance, she could not afford to take that risk of being without income.

    Also-think about the social judgements. You are giant and pregnant at work for nine months, then come back without a baby. If I was a teen mom, I might get applause for giving the baby up. Making the money I do, the majority of my coworkers would assume I was a selfish non-motherly bitch if I gave up my baby.



    No matter how careful you are, babies happen. I took the Morning after pill once-ewww.... not fun. Many years later my toddler was an IUD baby. At 99.9% he was slightly unlikely. (I think he was a determined INTJ sperm). I considered not having the baby as my husband and I were broken up with no plans to reunite. For me-I could not make that choice. Perhaps already having carried a baby swayed my choice.

    I did this chicken egg thing once. I dropped an egg that was about 16 days along. I looked it up later. The chickens belly was very bloated from the yolk-they absorb it slowly for nutrition. Its eyes bulged as they were very large in relation to its head. It lay there gasping for breath-it's lungs were not developed enough to breath. It just spasmed. I put it in a trash bag and hit it with a shovel several times.

    Babies in the womb develop the capacity to feel pain at about 12-14 weeks. If we choose to allow termination of pregnancy at that stage onwards we should give the baby pain medication at the least-Vets do it when they spay pregnant dogs or cats. Conscious or not it is wrong to inflict pain on another creature if we can find an alternative.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ^ This is my thinking, on the authority aspect. I'll put my two cents in here anyways.

    Even if someone is against abortion, having abortion available is a necessity, whether it is used or not. Women have a right to privacy, and women have a right to have a safe, sterile environment. I think the availability of abortion is not, and should never be, debatable. Only the belief in using those availabilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Birth control (which condoms are) can fail.

    Adoption doesn't produce the same result- it still requires pregnancy and labor/birth or major abdominal surgery. It also makes certain the pregnancy will be public- I don't think spending 4-5 months in a home for unwed mothers is a viable option for most women. Not to mention adoptive parents want healthy babies born to healthy mothers, and not every mother who seeks abortion is healthy or carrying a healthy baby.
    This.

    /thread, imo.
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