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  1. #31
    Senior Member run's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky is BLUE! View Post
    Could you clarify what exactly is your question?
    I'm trying to figure out why I feel like these people are killers. I want a pro-lifer, like the single person who posted on page 2 to answer it. If not, whatever.

  2. #32
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Moral relativism leaves no reason that anything should be wrong. At least hexis is being consistent.

  3. #33
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    Does mere disagreement entail that there's no truth, or that we can never come to the truth?

    In mathematics, some think there are 23 dimensions, some 11, some 10. Do they look at opposing arguments and give up? Opinions point at something. They need something at which they opine. You don't sit around heatedly debating which ice cream company is better do you?
    Morals and truth are absolutely not the same thing, nor can they be compared.

    That was my whole point.
    -end of thread-

  4. #34
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    I'm trying to figure out why I feel like these people are killers. I want a pro-lifer, like the single person who posted on page 2 to answer it. If not, whatever.
    Well, in your view they are. They have convinced themselves they aren't. You need to deal with it the way we deal with anything that is crazy. We just go on. People do awful things all the time, you get used to it.

    Focus on what you can do to make it better, not on hating people. That's where you are going to get messed up, going down that path. If this really is a problem for you, or you are being influenced by people who are on the "hate" side feel free to PM me.

  5. #35
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    Moral relativism leaves no reason that anything should be wrong. At least hexis is being consistent.
    That's not exactly how it works. Moral relativism just suggests that morals come from and depend on variables such as culture, society, history, and individual preferences. That's reality.

    Moral absolutism, the belief in absolute or God-determined right and wrong devoid of context, can be more dangerous.

  6. #36
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Less disagreement, I would imagine(hope) in the following circumstances:
    1. The health of the mother is endangered by carrying the baby. A choice to abort is necessary to ensure the health of the mother.
    2. The baby is the result of non-consensual sex (rape) and particularly where an underage girl is involved.

    Arguments for abortion to be legalized and for every woman to be able to make a choice for herself center on:
    1. A woman's right to her own body. Ultimately it is a woman, a conscious adult deciding what she should do for herself. The greatest physical and emotional effects are for the mother. The person undergoing these effects is best able to decide if this is an appropriate decision. Conversely, making abortion illegal or difficult is impinging on the right of a woman to control her own body.
    2. A fetus is considered a live, conscious entity who should be protected as an individual once it is able to physically sustain itself separate from the body of the mother. This is only possible once the child is born.

    P.S. Not interested in rehashing the debate over the issue. Just stating the views frequently expressed by the groups favoring legalization.

  7. #37
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    That's not exactly how it works. Moral relativism just suggests that morals come from and depend on variables such as culture, society, history, and individual preferences. That's reality.

    Moral absolutism, the belief in absolute or God-determined right and wrong devoid of context, can be more dangerous.
    I didn't make any judgements on it. Did I call it dangerous?

  8. #38
    Twerking & Lurking ayoitsStepho's Avatar
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    May I ask, who are we to judge when a fetus is ok to be killed? I think we all fail to realise that we're all here because we WERE'NT aborted, or the abortion failed. We all had a chance at life...so why do we choose who lives and who doesnt?

    I may also make a comment on the statement that its about survival of the fittest. Look, how are we to know if such a fetus was the fittest if we went and there and killed it? Even the 'fittest' fetus wont survive. I mean, any person can kill. Doesn't make them the fittest. It's defenseless. So of coarse if you try to get ride of it, you'll more than likely succeed. It doesn't have to do with whether or not it was the weakest or fittest.

    Also, the whole Roe versus Wade deal. The woman, Norma Micorvey, didn't she lie about being rapped? If this is true, the legalization of abortion is all set up on a lie. The insident wasn't even portrayed truthfully.
    Last edited by ayoitsStepho; 10-25-2009 at 09:59 AM. Reason: i keep getting the womans name wrong x/
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    ayoitsStepho is becoming someone else. Actually her true self, a rite of passage.

  9. #39
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    I'm trying to figure out why I feel like these people are killers. I want a pro-lifer, like the single person who posted on page 2 to answer it. If not, whatever.
    Hmm. That's why I asked for the clarification after the original post, but it seems people took it differently... it sounded like you wanted another pro-lifer to answer.

    I really hate abortion, it really bothers me; and the only reason I accept it at all is because I'm also a realist... I'm capable of seeing that in some situations, there are competing goods -- it's not "good" vs "bad" -- and so it makes sense to permit something that personally offends me because it's the only fair thing to do in the situation, there are other evils at play that I consider very bad as well.

    So, in the end, I have to rationally call myself "pro-choice"... but I'm definitely at the end that believes abortion should be rare and avoided if at all possible. I don't like it on a personal level... and I mean, I really -don't- like it.

    As far as attaching personal values to people who might abort or might support abortion rights, I tend to make personal judgments of others based on their motivations (as best I can determine them) and not necessarily their decision.

    If someone willfully got abortions and seemed to not care in the least, I'd probably feel like they were "evil."

    If someone got abortions out of ignorance and immaturity, I would feel like they were immature and grieve over the decision but not that they were necessarily "evil."

    If someone agonized over an abortion and got one after a long-thought-out decision process, there would be little stigma I would automatically attach to them even if I would grieve over their decision while thinking it makes sense and I would be extremely supportive of them.

    That's just me; while intellectually there's a lot of ambiguity over "beginning of life" and a lot of the distinctions were make seems irrational, there's also just the emotional part that sees abortion as a violating process, an abrupt break in the natural unfolding of life that could have often been handled in other ways; and since the unborn baby is recognizably human, emotionally I read it as human as a born child even if a case can be made for that status being ambiguous; and having three children of my own, I've watched that whole process unfold and see and love the results and thus see the great loss of potential life and value.

    I guess the difference here is that I do not attach hatred to people who get abortions or support abortion rights if I see that their position is based on trying to do the overall "best thing" in the situation and it's merely a difference of opinion, NOT that they're trying to be evil and selfish and destructive.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #40
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by run View Post
    I'm trying to figure out why I feel like these people are killers. I want a pro-lifer, like the single person who posted on page 2 to answer it. If not, whatever.
    Because you think you're killing potential.

    Whether or not it's actual human life is inconsequential. However, when you're destroying it, it was something so close to having its own life, an independent mind, and even the possibility to do something good. And by destroying it you're destroying all of that along with it.

    Then again, Hitler's mom wanted to abort him and her doctor talked her out of it, so I guess it goes both ways.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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