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  1. #381
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    It is pointless. Politically, it's already a finished debate. Repealing Roe v. Wade or making abortion illegal is completely off the table.

    Pro-choicers have essentially won, all over the developed world, and I think pro-lifers would be more wise to pick new battles instead of fighting already lost ones.
    I completely disagree.

    Isn't it disconcerting to think of a world where people didn't assertively stand up for their biggest value? The pro-life stance centers around the belief that abortion is an act that kills a person.

    What a pathetic world it would be if those in the minority quieted down and didn't stand up for their beliefs.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  2. #382
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Wasn't Terrie Shivo a human? How is that a grey area then? Who's job is it to decide what quality of life is good enough? What if the girl killed in an honour killing wasn't really enjoying a great quality of life anyway?

  3. #383
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Wasn't Terrie Shivo a human? How is that a grey area then? Who's job is it to decide what quality of life is good enough? What if the girl killed in an honour killing wasn't really enjoying a great quality of life anyway?
    I completely disagree that Terri Shiavo was a human (subjective, unsubstantiable opinion). Whereas in an honour killing, the girl is definitely human. I think I'm being consistent here? (Genuine question.)
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  4. #384
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    ^ Do you believe T.S. was not human because of the lack of brain function?
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  5. #385
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    How do you figure? She was responsive to her family and she was conscious. What in your books makes a person human? The ability to care for oneself? (That rules out babies). The potential to care for oneself? (Rule out anyone who's had a serious accident, who was born handicapped or who is very elderly). The ability to experience life without pain? (Then talk to all the people suffering from various degenerative diseases and ask if they'd like to die). The ability to express a desire to live? (Does that rule out anyone who cannot speak for themselves? What about those who are temporarily depressed and don't want to live?)

    I'm speaking from the perspective of having an aunt with two severely handicapped daughters who cannot walk or speak, one is fed with a tube and has both have lived years beyond when they were supposed to. They both have severe scoliosis in addition to Rhett's Syndrome and CP respectively. However, they do communicate their likes and dislikes, who they miss, what music they would like to hear and so on. My cousin is married to a girl who at 30 has two children and is confined to a wheelchair (she was only expected to live till about 25). She has lost the ability to walk and will lose the ability to speak or care for her own needs. When she gets to that point, is it up to others to decide whether she is any longer human?

    In the Terrie Shivo case it is interesting to note that her husband also wanted to legally marry the woman that he was seeing and would also benefit from the life insurance that her death would provide. I don't think it was a completely disinterested case of him believing she was unresponsive.

  6. #386
    Reigning Bologna Princess Rajah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I know what Rajah was talking about; and I'm making the argument that such an analogy doesn't really fit in any case; plus it's unwise to make such an anology not least because of the dark history it has(and I'm not just talking Medieval stuff here).
    God, your argument is ridiculous. Usehername nailed it; I don't have much else to say except, God, your argument is ridiculous.


    I... suppose. Yeah!

  7. #387
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ^ Do you believe T.S. was not human because of the lack of brain function?
    That's one of the premises that I work with, the science of it.


    Incidentally, this belief is more spiritual (note that it's not religious as in Christian but spiritual as in my personal ponderings, and I happen to be Christian so I apply my personal ponderings in that context).

    With an embryo, it's developing into a living being that can reflect God's image, that will have the opportunity to work to develop patience, kindness, hope, etc. as mentioned in the Bible, and as such I believe it has a soul. IMO, there's lots of reason to value this kind of life.

    OTOH with Terri Shiavo, she realistically has no future on Earth and her entire existence appears to have been standing for the principle of life. I don't believe in that principle of life for life's sake when it only refers to a bodily life, I believe that a human life requires soul. I see little evidence for this in Terri Shiavo's case--IMO, as a Christian her soul had no reason to hang with that horribly trapped body of hers, she did her good work and her time was called, IMO.

    There's something to be said for a religious person valuing their time on Earth, but there's also something to be said for someone who believes in eternal life not worrying to such extreme circumstances about their carnal life here on earth.

    I do however note that defining life is difficult and murky, and that it's entirely possible I'm wrong in both instances. Hence my beliefs that despite having firm beliefs I would never impose that on others.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #388
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ^ This is my thinking, on the authority aspect. I'll put my two cents in here anyways.

    Even if someone is against abortion, having abortion available is a necessity, whether it is used or not. Women have a right to privacy, and women have a right to have a safe, sterile environment. I think the availability of abortion is not, and should never be, debatable. Only the belief in using those availabilities.
    This has always been my feeling on it. I wouldn't have an abortion myself unless there were the most dire of circumstances but I could never make that choice for someone else, no mater what I believe.
    I like to rock n' roll all night and *part* of every day. I usually have errands... I can only rock from like 1-3.

  9. #389
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    How do you figure? She was responsive to her family and she was conscious. What in your books makes a person human? The ability to care for oneself? (That rules out babies). The potential to care for oneself? (Rule out anyone who's had a serious accident, who was born handicapped or who is very elderly). The ability to experience life without pain? (Then talk to all the people suffering from various degenerative diseases and ask if they'd like to die). The ability to express a desire to live? (Does that rule out anyone who cannot speak for themselves? What about those who are temporarily depressed and don't want to live?)

    I'm speaking from the perspective of having an aunt with two severely handicapped daughters who cannot walk or speak, one is fed with a tube and has both have lived years beyond when they were supposed to. They both have severe scoliosis in addition to Rhett's Syndrome and CP respectively. However, they do communicate their likes and dislikes, who they miss, what music they would like to hear and so on. My cousin is married to a girl who at 30 has two children and is confined to a wheelchair (she was only expected to live till about 25). She has lost the ability to walk and will lose the ability to speak or care for her own needs. When she gets to that point, is it up to others to decide whether she is any longer human?

    In the Terrie Shivo case it is interesting to note that her husband also wanted to legally marry the woman that he was seeing and would also benefit from the life insurance that her death would provide. I don't think it was a completely disinterested case of him believing she was unresponsive.
    While I sympathize with the difficulties and challenges in many disabled individuals' lives, and while I certainly believe in disabled individuals right to life, I don't believe that once we get to the spectrum of Terri Shiavo kind of living that we necessarily need to value that kind of lifeform.

    (Our timing was off and we both posted before seeing the other; these ideas are where I'm coming from.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post

    There's something to be said for a religious person valuing their time on Earth, but there's also something to be said for someone who believes in eternal life not worrying to such extreme circumstances about their carnal life here on earth.

    I do however note that defining life is difficult and murky, and that it's entirely possible I'm wrong in both instances. Hence my beliefs that despite having firm beliefs I would never impose that on others.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #390
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ayoitsStepho View Post
    Actually, I dont agree with the use of birth control either. Just to point that out
    Ouch. Some women can be so cruel.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

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